National Meeting Log 20090506

[Users #PPAu] [&Brendan ] [@Ycros ] [+Davidg7732] [+lovek323   ] [&Roderick] [%K`Tetch] [+Hiroki   ] [+stephenlark]
 * Irssi: #PPAu: Total of 8 nicks [2 ops, 1 halfops, 4 voices, 1 normal]

20:22 <+Davidg7732> Hello everyone. 20:22 <+lovek323> g'day 20:22 <&Brendan> welcome back, btw :P 20:22 <&Brendan> I am so freaking tired 20:23 <&Brendan> how about you? 20:23 <+Davidg7732> Same. I've been working on my PhD almost non stop since around 10am today. 20:24 <&Brendan> PhD on what/ 20:24 <&Brendan> ?* 20:24 <+Davidg7732> Environmental Science. Just started 20:24 <+lovek323> I'm fairly hungry. (Contributing to the conversation as usual.) 20:24 <&Brendan> oh cool 20:24 <+lovek323> Where are you studing? 20:24 <+Davidg7732> It involves using supercomputers to model the currents in the Great Australian Bight. I'm studying at Flinders Uni. 20:25 <&Brendan> oh awesome 20:25 <+Davidg7732> The GAB is the ocean just south of South Australia BTW. 20:25 <&Brendan> supercomputers, like an EeePC xD
 * Pseudomocha has joined #PPAu

20:25 <&Brendan> hi Pseudomocha 20:25 <+lovek323> cool 20:25 <+Davidg7732> How about yourself, why are you tired?
 * mode/#PPAu [+v Pseudomocha] by Brendan

20:25 <+Pseudomocha> hey Brendan 20:25 <&Brendan> i don't sleep much, that's my excuse 20:26 <+Pseudomocha> i slept for 12 hours last night 20:26 <&Roderick> evening everyone 20:26 <&Brendan> hey Roderick 20:26 <+Davidg7732> Evening. 20:26 <+lovek323> Good evening. 20:26 <+Pseudomocha> hi Roderick [Users #PPAu] [&Brendan ] [@Ycros ] [+Davidg7732] [+lovek323   ] [+stephenlark] [&Roderick] [%K`Tetch] [+Hiroki   ] [+Pseudomocha]
 * Irssi: #PPAu: Total of 9 nicks [2 ops, 1 halfops, 5 voices, 1 normal]

20:27 <&Brendan> how did Ycros get ops o.o
 * mode/#PPAu [-o Ycros] by Brendan

[Users #PPAu] [&Brendan ] [%K`Tetch  ] [+Hiroki  ] [+Pseudomocha] [ Ycros] [&Roderick] [+Davidg7732] [+lovek323] [+stephenlark]
 * Irssi: #PPAu: Total of 9 nicks [1 ops, 1 halfops, 5 voices, 2 normal]

20:27 >> Ycros<< Brendan: Roderick gave them to me 20:27 <&Brendan> hmm 20:27 < Ycros> :P
 * mode/#PPAu [+o Ycros] by Brendan

20:27 <&Brendan> halfop doesnt work today 20:27 <&Brendan> that's crap. 20:27 <@Ycros> take that 20:27 <&Brendan> indeed. 20:27 <@Ycros> :P 20:27 <&Brendan> I am undone. 20:28 >>> Brendan harikaris 20:28 >>> Pseudomocha giggles 20:28 <&Brendan> .. 20:28 <+Pseudomocha> what 20:28 <&Brendan> lol. 20:29 <&Brendan> two more minutes 20:29 <+lovek323> Oh no. I forgot about the time difference. Now I have no time to get food. 20:30 <&Roderick> SA, right lovek323? 20:30 <+lovek323> Yeah. 20:30 <+Davidg7732> I'm intending to eat during the meeting, so don't be embarrased. 20:30 <&Roderick> same :P 20:30 <+Davidg7732> I'm in SA too. 20:30 <+lovek323> I have to go to a shop to get food, though. :p 20:31 <+lovek323> Yeah, only the coolest people live in SA. 20:31 <+Pseudomocha> vic here 20:31 <&Roderick> ok, i guess we can get underway?
 * fraggature has joined #PPAu

20:31 <&Brendan> almost 20:31 <&Brendan> give me a minute 20:31 <&Brendan> lol 20:31 <&Brendan> computer issues 20:32 <&Roderick> haha, we'll wait for the latecomers 20:32 <&Brendan> hi fraggature 20:32 <&Brendan> bah why does the computer not boot now! 20:32 <+Hiroki> I don't think I've left since I came in here last time. 20:32 hey] 20:32 <&Brendan> indeed you have not
 * mode/#PPAu [+v fraggature] by Brendan

[Users #PPAu] [&Brendan ] [@Ycros ] [+Davidg7732] [+Hiroki  ] [+Pseudomocha] [&Roderick] [%K`Tetch] [+fraggature] [+lovek323] [+stephenlark]
 * Irssi: #PPAu: Total of 10 nicks [2 ops, 1 halfops, 6 voices, 1 normal]

20:33 <+fraggature> I hate me computer at the moment >.> 20:33 <&Brendan> I bought a new one 20:33 <&Brendan> and they lost my order 20:33 <&Brendan> I was mighty pissed. 20:34 <+lovek323> I imagine you were. 20:34 <+fraggature> lol
 * Topic for #PPAu: Pirate Party Australia :: http://pirateparty.org.au :: Meeting on Wednesday, 6 May 2009 20:30 AEST - add things you'd like to discuss to the agenda: http://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/index.php?title=Meeting_Agenda
 * Topic set by Ycros [Tue May 5 02:42:38 2009]

20:35 <+fraggature> mine decided to make itself unactivated, I no longer have the key and have 4 days to fix the issue 20:35 <&Brendan> ... pirate one? lol. 20:35 <+fraggature> not only that but I cannot rearm the grace period 20:35 <+lovek323> Just download the Windows 7 RC. Then you'll have a year before you have the problem again. 20:35 <+Davidg7732> Sounds like you are using vista 20:35 <&Brendan> Vista is horrible 20:35 <&Brendan> use a hackintosh. 20:35 <+fraggature> problem with RC is I have to do a fresh install once the RTM comes out 20:35 <&Brendan> fraggature: by the time it comes out, you'd have to anyway 20:36 <&Brendan> it's Windows. 20:36 <+lovek323> Yeah. Can be quite annoying. 20:36 <&Roderick> ok, we can get things underway. like i said, the agenda is really just a guide, so this is all going to be a bit town hall-esque atm. 20:36 <+fraggature> plus dling an OS on 64kbps? not even I am crazy enough to do that 20:36 <@Ycros> fraggature: once you lose the activation, it's pretty hard to get it back 20:36 <@Ycros> aye 20:36 <&Roderick> but i've had a few people contact me about wanting roles to be assigned, wanting to know who to talk to regarding certain roles 20:37 <&Roderick> so far they've been to do with the website, and with promotion, so with respect to that, we have to decide who to appoint, and what is going to happen with respect to them. 20:37 <@Ycros> yep 20:37 <+lovek323> Whom do we have in a general leadership role? 20:38 <&Brendan> Roderick. 20:38 <&Roderick> well, i guess i have a sort of co-ordinator role atm.
 * Topic for #PPAu: Pirate Party Australia :: http://pirateparty.org.au :: Meeting on Wednesday, 6 May 2009 20:30 AEST - add things you'd like to discuss to the agenda: http://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/index.php?title=Meeting_Agenda
 * Topic set by Ycros [Tue May 5 02:42:38 2009]

20:38 <@Ycros> Roderick-by-default 20:38 <@Ycros> has anyone asked Roderick? :P 20:38 <&Brendan> and I kinda spam links that people should read. 20:39 <&Roderick> but that said, if as time passes, and someone better and more able comes along, that'll be decided by the majority. 20:39 <+lovek323> Sounds good to me. 20:39 <+Pseudomocha> aye 20:39 <+Davidg7732> I'm happy with that. 20:39 <&Roderick> atm, its just trying to co-ordinate who wants to do what, give them access to what they need, to do that etc 20:40 <+lovek323> And chairing meetings. 20:40 <+Davidg7732> That sounds like a general leadership role. 20:40 <&Roderick> so is there anyone in particular that wants to assume some sort of responsibility over the site and its development. 20:40 <&Brendan> I know that Bond said he does 20:40 <&Roderick> ? 20:40 <+fraggature> I'd like a moderation role, even just a small one 20:41 <&Brendan> Ycros: you? 20:41 <+Davidg7732> I also could act as a moderator, but I don't have a lot of time so I couldn't do it by myself. 20:42 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: possibly 20:42 <@Ycros> I can lend some development time if something needs to be done in that area 20:42 <&Brendan> I already do moderation somewhat, but the forums are rather stagnant right now 20:42 <&Brendan> and iirc, we do have a mailing list 20:42 <&Brendan> on the piratpartiet.se server 20:42 <&Roderick> how about if i give bond, Brendan and Ycros access, and you guys can go from there? 20:42 <+Davidg7732> I was thinking more of a forum moderator, for when things liven up. 20:43 <&Roderick> and have free reign? 20:43 <&Brendan> Roderick: sounds good 20:43 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: indeed 20:43 <@Ycros> we have a mailing list as well? 20:43 <&Brendan> yeah, I think so 20:43 <@Ycros> forums vs mailing list? should we have both? 20:43 <&Brendan> wasn't my idea 20:43 <&Brendan> but I think the current forums are rathre annoying 20:44 <&Roderick> I think Bluebie wanted to be involved with it too, so if you guys want to discuss what you want to do with her, that'd be sweet. 20:44 <+Pseudomocha> I wouldn't have known about this meeting without the mailing list 20:44 <&Brendan> Pseudomocha: that's not the mailing list 20:44 <&Brendan> that's the crm 20:44 <+Pseudomocha> lolk 20:44 <&Roderick> yeah, the mailinglist is on the swedish server I think 20:44 <+lovek323> I quite like mailing lists. 20:44 <&Brendan> Roderick: I wouldn't mind assisting with coordination however 20:44 <&Brendan> and I could post regular links to useful articles on the main page 20:45 <&Brendan> I have a lot of time on my hands, lol 20:45 <&Brendan> I however do not have the expertise in the area of web programming with PHP, Perl, Ruby, etc 20:45 <&Brendan> so that's where Ycros, Bond, etc come in 20:46 <&Roderick> haha ok, well, however you guys choose to proceed with the site is up to you, anyone with ideas I'll refer to you three. 20:46 <&Brendan> my language is Python :P 20:46 <+Davidg7732> If you need any programming help, I may be able to assist as long as the project is not too time consuming. 20:46 <+lovek323> I can program, but I'm more interested in working on promotion/policy development. 20:46 <+Davidg7732> I'm mainly involved with languages such as Fortan, C, Java, etc but know quite a bit of HTML. 20:46 <&Brendan> lovek323: indeed, that comes after this discussion 20:46 <&Roderick> and the guy who got in contact with me re: promotions wanted to be involved, his name is frank. he wanted to have a discussion with those going to be involved with the site. 20:46 <+lovek323> Yes. 20:46 <&Roderick> i'll refer him to you three also. 20:47 <&Brendan> Roderick: good good. 20:47 <&Roderick> ok, are there any other roles we should be worrying about at the moment? 20:47 <&Brendan> well, do you plan on having a long-term hiatus again? 20:47 <&Brendan> :P 20:47 <&Brendan> it was lonely in here for 3 months 20:48 <@Ycros> Roderick: thinking about roles is a good idea 20:48 <@Ycros> this is part of what we're actually going to do as well 20:48 <&Roderick> yeah, this goes to party structure too. 20:48 <+Davidg7732> We could use a designer, someone to come up with posters, etc. 20:48 <&Brendan> well, what is the AEC's policy regarding required party positions? 20:49 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: indeed 20:49 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: good question. I started reading their handbook last night, but I didn't get all the way through it 20:49 <+lovek323> Perhaps we can get someone to investigate this. 20:49 <&Brendan> Ycros: perhaps this will be reserved for the next meeting then 20:49 <&Brendan> indeed 20:49 <&Roderick> many ways to structure it, but i'm thinking about in terms of just operating. 20:49 <+Davidg7732> I think this summarises it. 20:49 <+Davidg7732> http://www.aec.gov.au/Parties_and_Representatives/Party_Registration/Handbook/roles.htm 20:49 <&Brendan> more official plans for future roles should be discussed in a future meeting, I think 20:49 <@Ycros> Roderick: well what do we need to do 20:50 <&Roderick> ok, aec requirements will be an issue for next meeting then. 20:50 <+lovek323> Yes, at this point, I don't think we need to be concerned with roles required by AEC. 20:50 <+Davidg7732> agreed 20:50 <@Ycros> the way I see it, is our two main goals are: 1) a decent policy/where we stand on various issues 2) promotion 20:50 <+fraggature> yeah 20:50 <+lovek323> Agreed.
 * Topic for #PPAu: Pirate Party Australia :: http://pirateparty.org.au :: Meeting on Wednesday, 6 May 2009 20:30 AEST - add things you'd like to discuss to the agenda: http://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/index.php?title=Meeting_Agenda
 * Topic set by Ycros [Tue May 5 02:42:38 2009]

20:50 <+Hiroki> Indeed. 20:51 <@Ycros> maybe working out what sort of activism we can do/get involved with
 * Brendan changed the topic of #PPAu to: Pirate Party Australia :: http://pirateparty.org.au :: Party Policy

20:51 <&Roderick> ok then, which brings that to point 4. issues outside the party scope. 20:51 <&Roderick> that requires we define the scope first, and then determine what we do with issues outside that scope. 20:51 <&Brendan> well, as discussed for a while yesterday, issues regarding our stance on censorship were brought up 20:51 <+lovek323> Not necessarily. We can define a policy regarding issues outside the scope without defining a scope. 20:51 <&Brendan> heh, yes, define the scope. 20:52 <&Brendan> well, I see it as a pyramid 20:52 <&Brendan> a primary goal, with subgoals 20:52 <+lovek323> What are the goals of the IPP? 20:52 <+fraggature> defining the scope first would be a good idea 20:52 <&Brendan> http://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/index.php?title=Initial_Draft_Policy 20:53 <&Brendan> I believe the primary goal of the Pirate Party is Free Culture through Copyright Reform 20:53 >>+lovek323<< Brendan: I agree. 20:53 <&Brendan> but 20:53 <+fraggature> Sounds good 20:53 <&Brendan> Free culture can't be achieved through just that 20:54 <&Brendan> so, we reform copyright, yay we can share stuff 20:54 <&Brendan> but if it's censored by the governmnet 20:54 <&Brendan> we can only share freely what they tell us we can 20:54 <&Brendan> this is why I think that anti-censorship policies are a must 20:54 <&Roderick> yep, i agree, i can't see how anti-censorship can be eliminated from the policy platform. 20:55 <+Davidg7732> agreed. I think that is the top of the pyrymid 20:55 >>+lovek323<< Brendan: I don't agree. I think that censorship is a side issue. For example, I have no real issue with government censorship which is done well (i.e., with transparency, in a democratic way). 20:55 <&Brendan> lovek323: that's not the censorship I'm talking about 20:55 <&Brendan> disallowing R18+ games for example 20:55 <&Brendan> the internet filter 20:56 <&Brendan> non-transparent bureaucratic bulltwaddle. 20:56 <+fraggature> The internet filter must go 20:56 <+Davidg7732> Agreed 20:56 <+lovek323> If the people of Australia determine that R18+ games ought not to be available, then the government has a responsibility to make them unavailable. 20:56 <&Brendan> lovek323: when has anyone actually been asked? 20:56 <+Davidg7732> R18+ games are a side issue in my opinion however 20:56 <+lovek323> I agree that the current proposed Internet filter is a bad thing, but I am yet to be convinced of its central importance to copyright reform. 20:56 <&Roderick> no, that is the government playing nanny to the people. that is denying choice for those that are adult enough to make their own decision. 20:57 <&Brendan> lovek323: it has nothing to do with copyright reform 20:57 <@Ycros> they were going to change the stance on R18+ games, but one state governor disagreed and they require a unanimous agreement 20:57 <&Brendan> it has to do with free culture 20:57 <+lovek323> Which is what the government does when it says marijuana should be illegal, etc. 20:57 <&Brendan> lovek323: banning marijuana doesnt ban discussions 20:57 <&Brendan> or halt the spread of information 20:58 <+lovek323> Neither does the Internet filter. 20:58 <+Davidg7732> I think the filter is important because of the way the law could be corrupted, eg blacklisting sites about abortion. 20:58 <&Brendan> how can you say that for sure? 20:58 <+lovek323> Anyway, I'm side tracking the discussion. The central issue is the promotion of free culture? 20:58 <&Brendan> it's all so opaque 20:58 <&Roderick> i don't think its a case of will or won't, it is when. 20:58 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: exactly 20:58 <&Brendan> it's blocking non-illegal content 20:58 <&Brendan> currently 20:58 <&Brendan> and in the future, it could have further blocks 20:58 <+lovek323> So you would have no problem if it blocked only illegal content? 20:58 <+Davidg7732> That is my #1 point 20:58 <&Brendan> that we have no way of being aware of 20:59 <&Brendan> lovek323: oh no, I would still be angry 20:59 <@Ycros> who watches the censors? who do they answer to? 20:59 <+Davidg7732> - I would have almost no problems then. I would be annoyed, but not annoyed enough to protest against it like I have done previously 20:59 <+lovek323> The people. I believe in that transparent and democratically determined censorship would be acceptable to me. 21:00 <+fraggature> the AMCA, they answer only to the Government 21:00 <+Davidg7732> Perhaps we should define 'democratically determined censorship' 21:00 <&Brendan> indeed. 21:00 <+lovek323> But yeah, I agree that the current proposed Internet filter inhibits the free spread of culture. 21:01 <+lovek323> Well, it's not really a very good phrase, but I basically mean that there should be a board which takes submissions from Australians and the whole process is democratic (with board members voting) and transparent (with a detailed list of which sites and why). 21:01 <&Brendan> right 21:02 <&Brendan> lovek323: but why 21:02 <&Brendan> have you considered that you don't have to go to said websites? 21:02 <&Roderick> with the current climate which includes treaties like ACTA being drafted, and the IFPI calling for ISP responsibility for 'piracy' the filter will be used to restrict access to those sites too. 21:02 <+lovek323> Why have censorship? 21:02 <&Brendan> that the websites wont disappear because you hide them? 21:02 <+Davidg7732> answer: child porn 21:02 <&Brendan> that if you DO want to see it, it's extremely easy to get around 21:02 <+lovek323> Our society is censored in a number of ways already. I don't see any reason this shouldn't be extended to the Internet. 21:03 <&Brendan> be warned, Australia strongly supports the ACTA treaty 21:03 <&Brendan> based on the drafts from Wikileaks 21:03 <&Brendan> lovek323: I think that society should be less censored in general 21:03 <+fraggature> same here 21:03 <&Brendan> I understand classifications for television 21:03 <&Brendan> as you dont have control over what is displayed at what time 21:03 <&Brendan> the internet is not the same beast 21:03 <&Brendan> you choose where you go 21:03 <+lovek323> That is a valid point of view, but this is something I would need to think about more before I agree with you. 21:03 <&Brendan> it doesn't come to you 21:04 <+lovek323> You also choose to go to pornographic book stores. Should they be able to sell videos containing child pornography? 21:04 <&Brendan> 14 year olds are binge drinking, let's raise the age limit to 21, says the news 21:04 <&Brendan> wait a minute, 14 year olds, raising the limit will help how? 21:04 <+Davidg7732> good point 21:04 <&Brendan> lovek323: I'm not saying they should 21:04 <&Brendan> but just shutting the door doesnt make it go away lovek323 21:04 <&Roderick> only the filter is not about child pornography. its not a child pornography filter. it's an 'illegal or unwanted content' filter. 21:04 <&Brendan> you just go through the window 21:05 <+lovek323> Roderick: Therein lies the problem, I suppose. 21:05 <&Brendan> I am not against blocking child porn 21:05 <&Brendan> that's not censorship per se 21:05 <&Brendan> that's defending the law 21:05 <&Brendan> blocking anti-abortion sites isn't. 21:05 <+lovek323> We agree, then, I believe. 21:05 <+lovek323> I don't agree with blocking content people are legally allowed to view. 21:05 <+Davidg7732> not against the law 'yet' anyway 21:06 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: it's illegal to link to the pages on the blacklist 21:06 <&Roderick> People can censor their own internet connection if they want. 21:06 <&Brendan> yet you dont know what the blacklist is 21:06 <&Brendan> it's a stupid system 21:07 <&Brendan> alright 21:07 <+lovek323> I wouldn't mind having someone draft a position paper for us on this, as then it is something which can be better discussed. 21:07 <&Brendan> that would be interesting indeed. 21:07 <@Ycros> does internet content have an R18+ rating in australia? 21:08 <@Ycros> how can a classification board "rate" internet content? 21:08 <&Brendan> not yet apparently 21:08 <+lovek323> I don't believe that Internet content is rated at this point. I could be wrong. 21:08 <&Roderick> it's impossible to rate it all. 21:08 <&Brendan> lovek323: teh ACMA wants the power to block all restricted and refused classification material 21:08 <@Ycros> Roderick: that's kind of my point 21:08 <&Brendan> that's MA15+ upwards 21:08 <&Roderick> just confirming ;) 21:08 <+lovek323> I would have no problem with an agency which rates Internet sites, but I would have a problem with sites requiring a rating. 21:09 >>+lovek323<< Brendan: Yeah, that is outrageous. 21:09 <@Ycros> Roderick: and yet we rate books, movies, games, and any movie, book, game that isn't rated is technically illegal 21:09 <&Brendan> Ycros: no 21:09 <&Brendan> illegal to sell 21:09 <&Brendan> not to possess 21:09 <&Brendan> usually. 21:09 <+fraggature> rating the internet is like asking 1 man to count the world's population 21:09 <&Brendan> there's plenty of banned books in Australia 21:09 <&Brendan> because some prude didn't like the use of cunt on page 21 21:09 <&Brendan> and other absurd reasons 21:09 <&Brendan> they're still sold 21:09 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: hmm, I'm not sure about that, what would customs do if they found you importing it? 21:09 <&Brendan> Ycros: that's not the same thing 21:10 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: how do you get it into australia then 21:10 <&Brendan> Ycros: that's not up to me 21:10 <&Brendan> importing, possessing and retailing 21:10 <&Brendan> not the same thing 21:10 <&Brendan> I'm simply talking about the possession 21:10 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: how do you get it into possession in the first place 21:10 <+Davidg7732> Thats an interesting issue. What do we think about the censorship of books. 21:10 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: rather outrageous 21:11 <&Brendan> once again, it isn't forced upon you 21:11 <&Brendan> so it shouldn't be censored 21:11 <&Brendan> classified yes, not censored 21:11 <+Davidg7732> Take hentai for example, should it be classified child porn if it involves drawings of naked children? 21:11 <&Brendan> I believe warning should be placed on explicit books 21:11 <&Brendan> warnings* 21:11 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: now that is VERY grey area there 21:11 <+fraggature> I hate the idea, it is forcefully witheld information, in a sense 21:12 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: classifications provide warnings, that's partially why they exist 21:12 <&Brendan> indeed 21:12 <&Brendan> but they stop 21:12 <@Ycros> primarily rather 21:12 <&Brendan> they are restricted at a point
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21:12 <&Brendan> refused classification shouldn't exist
 * mode/#PPAu [+v Quinny] by Brendan

[Users #PPAu] [&Brendan ] [@Ycros ] [+Davidg7732] [+Hiroki  ] [+Pseudomocha] [+stephenlark] [&Roderick] [%K`Tetch] [+fraggature] [+lovek323] [+Quinny    ]
 * Irssi: #PPAu: Total of 11 nicks [2 ops, 1 halfops, 7 voices, 1 normal]

21:12 <+lovek323> I've gotta get going, but would anyone mind if I put some thoughts together (perhaps putting them on the wiki) so that we have something to argue from regarding this issue? 21:13 <&Brendan> I already have 21:13 <&Brendan> I'll save it once the meeting ends
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21:13 <&Brendan> and the logs will be posted. 21:13 <+lovek323> Excellent. 21:13 <+lovek323> Good bye, everybody. 21:13 <&Roderick> Look forward to reading it lovek323 21:13 <@Ycros> see, I think the internet has shown us what a world without classifications and censorship looks like 21:13 <+Davidg7732> See you later. 21:13 <&Brendan> Ycros: it's a rather good thing 21:14 <&Brendan> in my opinion, anyway 21:14 <&Brendan> myspace is not a good thing however 21:14 <&Brendan> :P 21:14 <@Ycros> you don't have to use it 21:14 <&Brendan> exactly 21:14 <&Brendan> I didnt say ban myspace 21:14 <&Brendan> :P 21:15 <&Brendan> A moment, just for clarification 21:15 <&Brendan> was it decided that the main focus of the party should be Free Culture? 21:15 <@Ycros> isn't that what it leads to? 21:15 <&Brendan> indeed 21:15 <+Davidg7732> I don't think it was, but I'd be happy to go with that. 21:15 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: what did you think it was? 21:16 <&Roderick> http://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/index.php?title=Pirate_Manifesto#Core_Issues_and_Requirements_of_a_Pirate_Party not binding of course. 21:16 <&Roderick> but i think, a good guide. 21:16 <+Davidg7732> one moment, I'd like to review what was said for a second 21:16 <&Brendan> Roderick: I didnt say primary policies 21:16 <&Brendan> I said primary focus 21:16 <&Brendan> the greater goal 21:17 <@Ycros> as in, copyright reform is what we want to do, but the reasons why we want to do it are more important 21:17 <&Brendan> inded 21:17 <&Brendan> indeed* 21:17 <@Ycros> copyright/patent reform 21:17 <&Brendan> which is why I stated that I believe the focus should be Free Culture, and the policies determining this are to be decided 21:18 <+Davidg7732> We were talking about Free culture and then the discussion went on to censorship. Perhaps our core issue could be 'Free culture through censorship reform'? (worded better though) 21:18 <&Brendan> such as copyright reform, patent reform, anti-censorship, etc 21:18 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: but that is still focusing on a pathway to the focus 21:18 <@Ycros> Davidg7732: censorship is just one issue that some of us believe to have an impact on free culture 21:18 <+Davidg7732>  that seems to summarize my opinion well. 21:18 <&Brendan> there's multiple milestones to free culture
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21:19 <+Davidg7732> I think I understand what you are saying. 21:19 <@Ycros> also listed on the wiki are privacy rights 21:19 <&Brendan> I think that's more of a subpolicy though 21:21 <&Brendan> now, let us discuss the policies once again for a moment 21:21 <&Brendan> so we can move on :) 21:21 <@Ycros> Roderick: the CC survey got me thinking, it was really well done and thought provoking. I wonder if it would be useful to conduct surveys, and find out what people's concerns and issues are 21:21 <&Brendan> Is it agreed that the party should have a main policy regarding copyright reform? 21:21 <+fraggature> yes 21:21 <&Roderick> well privacy fundamental to liberty. 21:21 <+Davidg7732> yes 21:21 <&Brendan> please, for a moment, can we stay on topic Ycros and Roderick, :P 21:21 <&Roderick> thats a good idea Ycros 21:21 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: sorry :P 21:21 <&Brendan> I want to close this portion 21:22 <&Brendan> is it agreed we require a main policy regarding copyright reform? 21:22 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: copyright reform is obviously the main thing the party is about, and indeed where the concept of pirate parties has come from 21:22 <+stephenlark> yes 21:22 <&Brendan> Yes, I agree. It's simply for the record :P. is it agreed that we require a main policy regarding patent reform, whether it be software patents or pharmaceutical patents? 21:23 <&Brendan> or other patents, too 21:23 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: patents come into it in a big way 21:23 <@Ycros> in essence we're talking about intellectual property as a whole 21:23 <&Brendan> yes, I know 21:23 <+Davidg7732> I think our policy on patent reform should be different from out policy on copyright reform 21:23 <@Ycros> which encompasses both copyright and patents 21:23 <&Roderick> ok, I for one think there is a general consensus that free culture is more than just copyright reform can be agreed upon - what exactly is within that scope, people still want to debate, but can we agree that those things contained within the initial draft policy are within that scope? 21:23 <+Davidg7732> as patents cover things such as medicines 21:24 <&Brendan> Roderick: that's what I'm covering now 21:24 <@Ycros> Davidg7732: that is indeed true 21:24 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: yes, obviously must be different 21:24 <&Brendan> and now, is it agreed that the party should take an anti-censorship stances as a main policy? 21:24 <&Brendan> I am not defining how anti-censorship 21:25 <&Brendan> just saying not swaying towards pro- or agnosticism 21:25 <&Roderick> i think aye. 21:25 <@Ycros> I think anti-censorship is another important component of this [Users #PPAu] [&Brendan ] [@Ycros ] [+Davidg7732] [+Hiroki     ] [+stephenlark] [&Roderick] [%K`Tetch] [+fraggature] [+Pseudomocha]
 * Irssi: #PPAu: Total of 9 nicks [2 ops, 1 halfops, 5 voices, 1 normal]

21:25 <&Brendan> Hiroki, Pseudomocha, stephenlark: any opinions regarding the previous few questions? 21:26 <&Brendan> input helps :) 21:26 <+Davidg7732>  I am unsure about this. Anti-censorship is another important component of this, but we did agree that some censorship may be acceptable. 21:26 <+Hiroki> Eehhh.... let me read. 21:26 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: as I said, I'm not defining the scope now 21:26 <&Brendan> I'm stating that we simply have a goal of some form of anti-censorship 21:26 <&Brendan> to at least defend our own right to information 21:26 <+Davidg7732> Then I agree. 21:26 <+Hiroki> Yes, of course it should be a goal. 21:26 >>+Pseudomocha<< Brendan, i also agree 21:26 <+stephenlark> agreed on anti-censorship stance 21:27 <&Brendan> now, DRM is on the wiki 21:27 <&Brendan> what do you think about DRM? 21:27 <@Ycros> I think "anti-censorship" is a bad thing to call it. Instead, we should simply have a stance on censorship in our policy 21:27 <@Ycros> DRM is part of copyright enforcement 21:27 <&Brendan> Ycros: yes, but I was stating that it in a manner that makes explicit that we are not pro-censorship :P 21:27 <+Hiroki> DRM is fine in itself, but I think people are strangling it. 21:27 <@Ycros> that comes under copyright reform 21:27 <&Brendan> Ycros: indeed, but it has a stance fully against DRM 21:27 <&Brendan> there are situations where DRM works rather well 21:28 <&Brendan> example, Steam 21:28 <&Brendan> from Valve Corporation. 21:28 <&Brendan> they don't use over-restrictive DRM 21:28 <+Pseudomocha> yes. it does work quite well. 21:28 <+Davidg7732> Some forms of DRM are perfectly acceptable to me (steam). Others a just really annoying, (SecuROM) 21:28 <&Roderick> there shouldn't be any law making it's circumvention illegal. 21:28 <&Brendan> and iirc, Steam stated that if they ever close, that your games will still work 21:28 <&Brendan> and I believe that was part of the EULA 21:28 <&Brendan> don't hold me to that though 21:29 <&Brendan> Roderick: indeed 21:29 <&Brendan> I agree with that 21:29 <+Davidg7732> I will not buy anything with SecuROM, but I don't feel strongly enough against it to protest against it. Why should DRM be part of our parties policy? 21:29 <+Davidg7732>  agreed 21:29 <@Ycros> Roderick: I agree with you. I think with copyright reform DRM becomes irrelevant. 21:30 <&Brendan> Ycros: not necessarily 21:30 <&Brendan> should it become legal to circumvent it, publishers would probably not accept this 21:30 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: then they won't accept the copyright reform 21:30 <&Brendan> and do everything in their power to stop you from circumventing their protection 21:31 <&Brendan> oh no, they can accept it 21:31 <&Brendan> they can just bug the shit out of you 21:31 <@Ycros> as I said, DRM only enforces copyright, we're changing what copyright means 21:31 <&Brendan> I wasn't, I was simply discussing DRM and our opinions about it 21:32 <+Davidg7732> This is an interesting take on the subject that I have not though about. 21:32 <+Davidg7732> Has there been any legal cases of people being charged with circumventing DRM of say a movie that they themselves legally own? 21:32 <&Roderick> I think there should be some sort of legal imposition on them to inform the consumer that their product contains prohibitive DRM on it etc 21:32 <&Brendan> Roderick: like an ingredients section on food 21:32 <&Brendan> "This DVD is infected with SecuROM." 21:32 <+Davidg7732> There kind of is now, eg *Internet connection required to activate 21:33 <+Davidg7732> *For computer games that is 21:34 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: look, my opinion is that DRM is a core part of copyright reform 21:34 <&Brendan> so should DRM be included within the copyright reform policy? 21:34 <&Brendan> or be added as a subpolicy? 21:34 <@Ycros> you can't talk about copyright reform without touching on DRM 21:34 <&Brendan> or dropped entirely? 21:34 <&Roderick> exactly, it's integral to any discussion about copyright. 21:34 <+Davidg7732>  I don't understand what you mean. 21:34 <+stephenlark> agreed on DRM 21:34 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: DRM is copyright enforcement 21:35 <@Ycros> Davidg7732: as I said before, DRM is a tool which is used to enforce copyright 21:35 <&Brendan> its primary goal is to hinder reproduction of the product 21:35 <+Davidg7732> It is a tool of copyright enforcement 21:35 <@Ycros> so if you're talking about copyright 21:35 <&Brendan> legally or otherwise 21:35 <@Ycros> you have to touch on DRM at some point 21:35 <&Brendan> The wiki will state that an agreement that DRM must be discussed within the copyright reform policy 21:36 <+Davidg7732> Yes. But bittorent is a tool sometimes used to spread copyrighted material. Is it related to copyright as well? 21:36 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: it is simply a protocol 21:36 <+Davidg7732>  I'm happy to accept this. 21:36 <&Roderick> DRM has legislation backing its enforcement though. 21:36 <&Brendan> I'm sure gopher can be used for piracy too 21:37 <@Ycros> bittorrent is used in mass copyright infringement around the world, yes I think it's relevant to the discussion 21:37 <&Roderick> technological protection measures are illegal to circumvent, except for a few exceptions. 21:37 <&Brendan> Ycros: I don't think discussing a specific protocol is useful 21:37 <&Brendan> the policies need to be technology-neutral 21:37 <&Brendan> unless legislated against 21:37 >>@Ycros<< Brendan: no, but discussing current issues is 21:37 <+Davidg7732>  That is what I was trying to say. 21:38 <&Brendan> example, a policy against DRM is useful because there is legislation regarding circumvention of it 21:38 <@Ycros> we have to be ready to answer people's questions on those matters 21:38 <&Brendan> Ycros: we can be, doesn't have to be part of the policy using the words "BitTorrent" 21:38 <@Ycros> mmm, yeah. 21:38 <@Ycros> not as part of the policy really 21:38 <&Brendan> we can discuss mediums of transfer 21:38 <&Brendan> that's what I mean by protocol agnostic 21:38 <&Brendan> and technology neutral 21:40 <&Brendan> I don't honestly see the true relevance of bittorrent regarding the context of copyright reform though 21:40 <&Brendan> if copyright is reformed in a manner that allows non-commercial distribution 21:40 <&Roderick> ok, not wanting to railroad anything, but i think we've reached a some consensus that DRM is relevant, and we should have some sort of policy on it? 21:40 <&Brendan> then the protocol becomes irrelevant 21:40 <+Davidg7732> I was just using it s an example. I don't think it has a relevance. 21:41 <&Brendan> Roderick: it should be iwthin the copyright reform policy. 21:41 <+Davidg7732>  You convinced me. Agreed. 21:41 <&Brendan> is it agreed that all the policies should be technology neutral? 21:41 <+stephenlark> agreed 21:41 <&Brendan> let me rephrase 21:41 <+Davidg7732>  agreed again. 21:41 <&Brendan> slightly 21:42 <&Brendan> discussion about DRM can't be technology neutral per se 21:42 <&Brendan> as it's one central focus 21:42 <&Brendan> but regarding non-legislated policies 21:42 <&Brendan> things that we arent fighting against 21:42 <&Brendan> they should be technology neutral 21:42 <&Roderick> yep, agree. generally speaking that should be a guide with our policies. 21:43 <+Davidg7732>  Why the distinction between things hat we arent fighting against? 21:43 <+Davidg7732> What if our policy changes in the future? 21:44 <&Brendan> what I'm saying is that things that don't HAVE to be specifically against one thing, shouldn't be 21:44 <&Brendan> especially the example of the distribution 21:44 <&Brendan> discussing one protocol would be moot 21:44 <+Davidg7732> Ok. I understand. 21:44 <&Brendan> but here comes something harder 21:44 <&Brendan> what about physical distribution 21:45 <+Davidg7732> Agreed. 21:45 <&Brendan> physical non-commercial distribution 21:45 <&Brendan> on CDs, DVDs, BluRay, helium balloons coated with magnets, etc 21:45 <&Brendan> this is also what I meant by technology neutral 21:46 <&Brendan> I believe any distribution format should be legal, should it be for non-commercial purposes 21:46 <+fraggature> are you being serious about the baloons? 21:46 <&Brendan> fraggature: it was a joke, regarding future technologies we don't know about 21:46 <&Brendan> :P 21:47 <+fraggature> I was thinking "wtf, why didn't anyone tell me about this new technology" 21:47 <&Brendan> I still remember pirating Portal, played it, loved it, bought it. 21:47 <&Brendan> Bought it for my friend. 21:47 <&Brendan> Bought it for my girlfriend. 21:47 <+Hiroki> The thing with physical non-distribution is that you either aren't duplicating it, or you pay money of some sort to create the item (buy DVDs, etc) 21:47 <&Brendan> same goes for World of Goo 21:48 <&Brendan> Hiroki: huh? 21:48 <&Brendan> purchasing the medium to copy it isn't distributing commerically 21:48 <&Brendan> you had to buy a hard drive to store your music on 21:48 <+Hiroki> That's true 21:49 <+Hiroki> But people see it differently if there's more "time" consumed into something. 21:49 <&Brendan> explain 21:49 <+Hiroki> It's easier for us to just transfer a song online than to burn it to a disc and mail it. 21:50 <&Brendan> depends on what part of the bush you live in 21:50 <+fraggature> he doesn't 21:50 <+fraggature> I'm the bush boy 21:50 <&Brendan> and I find the sneakernet to be faster for transfering 100GB than ADSL2+ 21:50 <&Brendan> 10GB a minute 21:51 <&Brendan> to walk three doors up 21:51 <&Brendan> and copy it onto his computer 21:51 <+Davidg7732> Does ease of use matter? Someone robbing a bank may have a harder time than someone robbing a newspaper vendor. Both are still illegal. 21:51 <+Hiroki> Both with different penalties. 21:51 <+Hiroki> But that;s beside the point.... 21:51 <&Brendan> downloading a song is a civil offense 21:51 <&Brendan> armed robbery is not 21:52 <+Davidg7732> Ok, Sorry. I was a little off topic there. 21:52 <+fraggature> theft takes something, copyright infringement makes a copy and gives the copy to someone 21:52 <+Hiroki> But it takes the opportunity for that receiver to buy it, see. 21:52 <&Brendan> "I wouldn't steal a car, but if my friend called me up on the phone and said he could make a copy of one for me, why would I say no?" 21:53 <&Brendan> horrible misquote of a comedian 21:53 <&Roderick> yeah, that is a distinction you have to constantly remind yourself about, intellectual 'property' is a bit of a misnomer. 21:53 <&Roderick> you can't 'steal' copyright. 21:53 <+Davidg7732>  They can always buy it later 21:53 <&Brendan> as I stated before, I do that 21:53 <+Hiroki> Yes, and that's where people miss the point. 21:53 <&Brendan> but I cant buy Sonata Arctica CDs 21:53 <&Brendan> anywhere near where I live 21:54 <&Brendan> or Ayreon 21:54 <+stephenlark> gotta go folks... 21:54 <&Brendan> good bye stephenlark :) 21:54 <+Hiroki> Someone might download a cam of a movie, and go watch it in the cinemas. It's what normally happens. 21:54 <+Davidg7732> see you. 21:54 <+Hiroki> Same thing with songs, really. 21:54 <+fraggature> shops out my way only stock crap music, I have never seen a metal album for sale 21:54 <+Hiroki> Bye. 21:54 <&Brendan> I know people who buy DVDs, then download the rip 21:54 <&Roderick> should we agree on a time for the next meeting then? 21:54 <&Brendan> because they cant rip them themselves 21:54 <&Brendan> because they lack the expertise
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21:55 <&Roderick> what day/time is better for others? 21:55 <&Brendan> Roderick: not yet 21:55 <&Brendan> 5 minutes. 21:55 <+Davidg7732>  People seem to be leaving, so soon
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21:55 <&Roderick> oh, not wanting to stop the meeting, just want to get some feedback on a better time for people before they leave. 21:55 <+Hiroki> I think we need to look at piracy as a way of previewing something before you go out and buy it. 21:55 <+Hiroki> Sometimes you might, and sometimes you may not. 21:56 <+Hiroki> Test-driving a car isn't stealing. 21:56 <&Brendan> ok, so the scope has currently been defined as Free Culture, with policies regarding copyright and patent reform, and a stance against overbearing censorship. 21:56 <&Brendan> Any comments? 21:56 <+Hiroki> Sounds good. 21:56 <&Roderick> thats the general gist as i understand it. 21:56 <+Davidg7732> Aye 21:57 <&Brendan> I have recorded this 21:57 < Kocsonya> I jooined a but late, it might have been already discussed, but how much do we follow the manifesto of the Swedish PP? 21:57 <&Roderick> will you be posting it up Brendan ? 21:57 <&Brendan> Roderick: indeed 21:57 <&Brendan> on the wiki 21:58 <&Brendan> and the irc logs too 21:58 <+Hiroki> You post the entire log? 21:58 <&Brendan> I will. 21:59 <&Roderick> Kocsonya, I don't think it will be all that different, however I think we may differ on certain points. 21:59 <&Brendan> Roderick: and the manner in which we go about it 21:59 <&Brendan> different system, different policies 21:59 <+Davidg7732> I think the wiki says it best. It "should be adapted to meet our own end, as we are not obligated to agree on all points, or with its current form." 21:59 <&Roderick> Yep. 21:59 <&Brendan> I think we should officially prepare to wrap this meeting up guys 22:00 <+fraggature> ok then 22:00 <&Brendan> I think the next meeting should start an hour earlier 22:00 <&Brendan> allow further time for discussion 22:00 <&Roderick> Ok, any particular date? 22:00 <+Davidg7732> Agreed, but not too much any earlier. 22:00 <+Hiroki> I think we were discussing about moving it to Thursday? 22:00 <&Brendan> Davidg7732: 7.30pm AEST 22:01 <&Brendan> next week, Wednesday or Thursday I think would be best 22:01 <+Davidg7732> I am unavailable Mondays and Tuesdays late, but any other day 7.30pm AEST is fine. 22:01 <&Brendan> probably Thursday 22:01 <+Pseudomocha> fine with me 22:01 <&Roderick> 7.30 on a thursday will be tight for me, I may be somewhat late. 22:01 <&Brendan> Roderick: I think I can hold the keep :P 22:01 <&Brendan> how late is late? 22:02 <&Roderick> but thats ok, Brendan or Ycros are just as able :P 22:02 <+fraggature> Thursday sounds excellent 22:02 <&Roderick> if not more. 22:02 <&Roderick> maybe 20-30 minutes. 22:02 <&Brendan> ah that's fine 22:02 <&Roderick> yeah. for next week, i'll have a look at the aec requirements, and do a walkthrough on the wiki. 22:02 <&Brendan> excellent 22:03 <+Hiroki> And I'll grow a week closer to being able to vote. 22:03 <&Brendan> haha 22:03 <&Brendan> Roderick: I'll add it to the agenda 22:03 <&Roderick> if you, Ycros and Bond can email me at roderick@ppau.info, I'll email you all re: access. 22:03 <&Brendan> also, a more indepth discussion on censorship perhaps? 22:03 <&Roderick> and set you up with email accounts. 22:04 <&Roderick> ok, yeah, i think our approach to the filter should be discussed.
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22:04 < Hiroki[m]> I just got BSOD'd 22:05 <@Ycros> Roderick: j 22:05 <@Ycros> k 22:05 <&Roderick> ouch. 22:05 <&Brendan> haha 22:05 <&Brendan> use a real OS ;) 22:05 < Hiroki[m]> I tried turning on the TV and bam 22:05 < Hiroki[m]> Meh. I wanted a mac but couldn't afford 22:06 <&Brendan> Hackintosh 22:06 <&Brendan> do it
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22:07 <+Hiroki[m]> I have to remember to set the boot location to my hard drive again 22:07 <+Hiroki[m]> Current it boots from USB 22:07 <&Brendan> wait, before off topicness 22:07 <&Brendan> Thank you guys for attending this meeting.
 * Roderick changed the topic of #PPAu to: Pirate Party Australia :: http://pirateparty.org.au :: Party Policy :: Next meeting - 14 May (19:30) AEST

22:07 <&Brendan> The next meeting will be next week, Thursday 14 May 22:07 <&Brendan> damn you Roderick 22:07 <&Brendan> steal my thunder. 22:07 <&Brendan> :P 22:08 <&Roderick> haha 22:08 <&Brendan> You may now return to your homes. 22:08 <&Brendan> *end logging*
 * Roderick changed the topic of #PPAu to: Pirate Party Australia :: http://pirateparty.org.au :: Party Policy :: Next meeting - Thursday 14 May (19:30) AEST