Pirate Congress 2020/Minutes/Log

Meeting Minutes This document is a record of a meeting. Do not edit this document without contacting the relevant group first.

Meeting Log This page contains a transcript or log of a meeting that occurred on the 25th & 26th of July 2020. It should be used for reference only and does not need to be edited.

This is Alex Jago's raw log of the IRC chat for Congress 2020. Please note that all log times are in UTC+8:00, but the main time for Congress was AEST, which is UTC+10:00.

This log may be referred to in conjunction with recordings of the live stream:

• Saturday 25th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6U8PBgSJNc
• Sunday 26th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvWrS9Mz68E

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##### Congress Day 1 commences formally at 10:05 AEST, 25th July 2020.    #####
##### Please note that log times are in UTC+8, two hours behind AEST      #####
##### Further note that this Congress featured discussion on both Discord #####
##### (marked with [D]) and IRC. This log is taken from the IRC side.     #####
###############################################################################

08:05 [D] <alexjago> It's 10:05 AEST https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2020/Agenda
08:08 [D] <alexjago> @Miles you're muted
08:08 [D] <Parduss> Mandrake... is this a coup?
08:09 [D] <Parduss> No it's a mutiny?
08:11 [D] <Parduss> The fire exits here are not up to code, Miles I hold you responsible.
08:12 <@alexjago> Confirming IRC to Discord
08:13 [D] <mandrke> Confirming Discord to IRC
08:13 [D] <alexjago> Please preface anything to be read out with MOTION, COMMENT or QUESTION
08:13 [D] <Parduss> I was about to suggest we do something like that.
08:14 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/National_Congress_Standing_Orders
08:17 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2020/Nominations
08:21 [D] <Miles> MOTION adopt standing orders https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/National_Congress_Standing_Orders
08:21 [D] <Miles> aye
08:21 [D] <Satch> aye
08:22 [D] <alexjago> Aye
08:22 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
08:22 [D] <JohnA> aye
08:22 [D] <mandrke> aye
08:22 [D] <fred> aye
08:22 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
08:22 [D] <Parduss> Aye
08:22 [D] <Parduss> @mandrke nerd!
08:24 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
08:24 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** Ayes 9 (unanimous) + Liam a bit late
08:28 [D] <alexjago> Currently: Miles giving the President's Report
08:31  * [D] <mandrke> slapps Miles, Alex, and the rast of the NC with a wet trout
08:32 [D] <mandrke> _slaps Miles, Alex, and the rast of the NC with a wet trout_ (edited)
08:32 [D] <mandrke> _slaps Miles, Alex, and the rest of the NC with a wet trout_ (edited)
08:36 [D] <JohnA> Thanks for your report Alex
08:37 [D] <Parduss> Fred, are we getting the 50c tour?
08:37 [D] <JohnA> The oligarchy of those who can be bothered ...
08:37 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Attendocracy
08:37 [D] <Miles> john lmao 😆
08:38 [D] <PP_Weekly> Attendocracy
08:41 [D] <mandrke> apologies for the slack video production
08:42 [D] <Satch> Aside from the lag, it's just the audio stream that's a problem for youtube.
08:43 [D] <mandrke> yeah, my buffer underruns
08:43 [D] <Satch> over runs, yes, it sounds like a buffer issue.
08:44 [D] <mandrke> no, my audio pipe software says that it is a underrun
08:44 [D] <Satch> ok, interesting.
08:46 [D] <Miles> 2019 Federal Election results: Queensland: 0.46%, NSW 0.36%, VIC 0.4%, WA 0.59% (all senate)
08:46 [D] <Miles> this is % of the total votes, not % of a quota
08:46 [D] <Miles> this is % of the total votes in that state (edited)
08:47 [D] <Pip Foweraker> COMMENT: John August said in Jitsi chat he wanted to speak after Alex?
08:48 [D] <Parduss> Might be AFK
08:48 [D] <maus> I'm sorry I can't really be here today. 😦
08:48 [D] <alexjago> @maus apology noted
08:48 [D] <JohnA> am here struggling with speed of computers
08:49 [D] <mandrke> @Satch, permission to speak?
08:51 [D] <Miles> MOTION adjourn for 10 minutes
08:51 [D] <BrandonS> aye
08:51 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
08:51 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
08:51 [D] <Miles> aye
08:51 [D] <Satch> aye
08:51 [D] <Parduss> Aye
08:51 [D] <alexjago> Aye
08:51 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
08:51 [D] <fred> Aye
08:52 [D] <BrandonS> Good morning all
08:52 [D] <BrandonS> Apologies for my tardiness
08:52 [D] <Parduss> Morning *raises mug*
08:52 [D] <alexjago> Aye
08:52 [D] <BrandonS> Alex, like the iso beard 😉
08:52 [D] <Satch> welcome Brandon! 😉
08:52 [D] <Miles> its ok we're in an age of zoom
08:52 [D] <mandrke> aye
08:53 [D] <Parduss> The results are inverse to the population numbers, basically, higher populations likely mean more "noise" to try to get heard around.
08:53 [D] <Parduss> The results are inverse to the population numbers, basically, higher populations likely means more "noise" to try to get heard around. (edited)
08:54 [D] <Satch> I reckon we could have a crack at SA, but I'm biased because I live here now. 😉
08:54 [D] <Parduss> Well SA seems to spawn a lot of the minor parties.
08:54 [D] <BrandonS> We've had essentially a non-aggression pact with the SA minor parties not to intrude into their territory.
08:55 [D] <BrandonS> I dunno if that should stand anymore
08:55 [D] <Parduss> NAP? *gives you a suspicious stare*
08:57 [D] <BrandonS> Nothing official. We  just stayed out of there
08:57 [D] <Parduss> You guys and your 3000+kbps up...
08:57 [D] <BrandonS> And they likewise
08:58 [D] <Parduss> Pfft! give them no quarter!
08:59 < jedb> traditionally the easiest places to get a Senate seat have always been Tas and SA due to the lower absolute voter numbers required
08:59 [D] <Dr Liam> I can hear you in Jitsi, but only with my volume at 100%
08:59 [D] <Parduss> Jedb, that makes a lot of sense.
09:00 [D] <Parduss> Nope, stil from miles
09:01 [D] <twisty> a'hoy
09:01 [D] <Parduss> Hey farmer
09:03 [D] <Satch> @twisty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtyio731tTA
09:04 [D] <Parduss> Love how that was ripped off rage...
09:04 [D] <Parduss> Yes!
09:05 [D] <Parduss> Sound>Video
09:06 [D] <Miles> "im going to get a fresh coffee" _returns with delicious hommus instead_
09:06 [D] <Parduss> Where's mine?
09:08 [D] <Miles> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736389313192787978/20200725_110757.jpg
09:08 [D] <Miles> >liberals liking what we stand for
09:08 [D] <Miles> Liberals dont even know what they stand for
09:08 [D] <Miles> >Liberals liking what we stand for (edited)
09:08 [D] <Miles> or else they know _exactly_ what they stand for
09:08 [D] <Satch> Now I want Baba ghanoush for some reason, lol.
09:09 [D] <Parduss> Kebab with Hommus and Garlic sauce.
09:09 [D] <Dr Liam> There's been plenty of studies where if you asked people about specific policies, in a way that doesn't "brand" the policy to a specific party, they'd often pick policies associated with another party.
09:10 [D] <Satch> I love Tzatziki.
09:10 [D] <Dr Liam> Biggest example there being in the US, where Republicans loved the "Affordable Healthcare Act" while at the same time saying they hated "Obamacare"
09:10 [D] <Parduss> Liam, if you understand people at all, that surprises nobody.
09:10 [D] <mandrke> yum!
09:11 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Heard you fine John, no mug shot unfortunately
09:11 [D] <Parduss> COMMENT: Honestly, your voice is important.
09:12 [D] <Satch> yoghurt, cucumber, and garlic mostly.
09:12 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2020/Constitutional_Amendments
09:14 [D] <twisty> aye
09:14 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/constitution/
09:15 [D] <JohnA> COMMENT: Yes, I think I can give good speeches - if people are listening. Here's the speech at Sydney Uni - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g3Xddc1mNA4J2uTOca03YIuQXWWRhaRP/view?usp=sharing - my other position is that we can have an interesting position on foreign polic.
09:16 [D] <Miles> this is under section 3.2 of the constitution ```National Council > Positions```
09:16 [D] <mandrke> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2020/Constitutional_Amendments
09:16 [D] <BrandonS> Someone's recording this so we can remix it into a sweet music track, right? 😛
09:16 [D] <Miles> yeeeeee
09:16 [D] <BrandonS> Awesome
09:17 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Plus it's all CC so we can sample without any fear of DMCA strikes
09:17 [D] <Parduss> Brandon, you're in charge of making the party theme song...
09:17 [D] <Parduss> 2.2.2.1 2.2.2.1
09:18 [D] <BrandonS> I wouldn't. Currently the party song is me drunkenly singing "With Cat Like Tread"
09:18 [D] <Satch> Who's going to choreograph the dance?
09:18 [D] <Parduss> You 😛
09:18 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I did dance to get out of PE in high school, so if you don't mind it being mostly flailing I'll volunteer @Satch
09:19 [D] <Parduss> "Get your vote on!"
09:19 [D] <alexjago> 🗳️  **MOTION: Adopt CAP-0  as presented.**
09:19 [D] <twisty> aye
09:19 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
09:19 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
09:19 [D] <BrandonS> Aye
09:19 [D] <JohnA> aye
09:20 [D] <Satch> aye
09:20 [D] <Miles> aye
09:20 [D] <fred> aye
09:20 [D] <alexjago> ⏱️  Voting closes in **three minutes**. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
09:20 < jedb> aye
09:20 [D] <alexjago> Aye
09:20 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
09:20 [D] <mandrke> aye
09:20 [D] <Parduss> Aye
09:21 [D] <Parduss> I mean, it gives people time to get coffee... speaking of which...
09:22 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** unanimously.
09:22 [D] <twisty> 3 minutes ... I'l live
09:23 [D] <JohnA> COMMENT: More stuff I did, writing on UBI / GMI : https://www.neweconomy.org.au/journal/issues/vol2/iss3/the-case-for-a-guaranteed-basic-income/
09:23 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Link is dead 😦
09:23 [D] <JohnA> COMMENT: Ouch! once it is out of maintenance ... let me see.
09:24 [D] <PP_Weekly> Aye
09:25 [D] <mandrke> @PP_Weekly you are currently too noisy
09:25 [D] <PP_Weekly> Sorry I muted the mic
09:26 [D] <PP_Weekly> Is that why I'm not on the livestream
09:28 [D] <PP_Weekly> 😂
09:28 [D] <alexjago> @Morpheus get in here 🙂
09:28 [D] <alexjago> 🗳️  **MOTION: Adopt CAP-1.**
09:28 [D] <twisty> aye
09:28 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
09:28 [D] <alexjago> ⏱️  Voting closes in **three minutes**. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
09:28 [D] <fred> aye
09:28 [D] <Morpheus> Here I am, thank you!
09:28 [D] <Miles> aye
09:28 [D] <JohnA> aye
09:28 < jedb> aye
09:28 [D] <PP_Weekly> Oh I was there for a second
09:28 [D] <PP_Weekly> Aye
09:28 [D] <alexjago> Aye
09:29 [D] <Morpheus> Aye
09:29 [D] <mandrke> aye
09:29 [D] <Satch> aye
09:29 [D] <BrandonS> aye
09:29 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
09:29 [D] <Parduss> Aye
09:32 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
09:32 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** Unanimously, CAP-1 proceeds to the online stage
09:32 [D] <Dr Liam> (This is what I get for constantly having to pop out of the room to handle some IRL stuff. ^^; )
09:34 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I note PP_Weekly just posted in the Jitsi chat they can't post in here any more
09:34 [D] <Dr Liam> I'd like to comment briefly on this one on stream.
09:35 [D] <Miles> @PP_Weekly how about now?
09:36 [D] <mandrke> Comment: You need to run a postal vote
09:37 [D] <twisty> thanks @Dr Liam
09:37 [D] <mandrke> @Miles Noisy
09:38 [D] <Miles> @PP_Weekly you should be able to read and comment here now
09:38 [D] <Miles> i noticed there was some permissions weirdness
09:39 [D] <8MA_JBH> Zombie party
09:39 [D] <Parduss> I suspect the limbo wouldn't last...
09:40 [D] <Parduss> Dereg and all that.
09:42 [D] <alexjago> 🗳️  **MOTION: Adopt CAP-2.**
09:42 [D] <alexjago> 
09:42 [D] <alexjago> ⏱️  Voting closes in **three minutes**. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
09:42 [D] <twisty> aye
09:42 < jedb> aye
09:42 [D] <fred> aye
09:42 [D] <alexjago> Aye
09:42 [D] <JohnA> aye
09:42 [D] <Morpheus> aye
09:42 [D] <Miles> aye
09:42 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
09:42 [D] <BrandonS> aye
09:42 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
09:42 [D] <Parduss> Aye
09:42 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
09:42 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
09:42 [D] <mandrke> aye
09:43 [D] <Satch> abstain
09:43 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @alexjago  @PP_Weekly is still having difficulty posting here
09:43 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Accoting tot heir post in Jitsi chat
09:43 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Accoting to their post in Jitsi chat (edited)
09:43 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
09:43 [D] <PP_Weekly> Aye
09:43 [D] <Pip Foweraker> According to their post in Jitsi chat (edited)
09:43 [D] <alexjago> Ah, roles problem. But turns out International and Supporter members don't have voting rights anyway 😦
09:44 [D] <Miles> yeah i removed the australian pirate tag because the international pirate tag should be enough
09:44 [D] <PP_Weekly> 🤙🏾fair enough, mate
09:45 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** Ayes 14 (twisty, fred, jedb, alexjago, JohnA, Morphus, Miles, Dr Liam, BrandonS, Deadbeat, Parduss, FireABroadside 8MA_JBH, mandrke, Pip Foweraker); 
09:45 [D] <alexjago>  Abstain 1 (Satch)
09:45 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2020/Motions
09:46 [D] <Miles> something must be wrong with the perms
09:46 [D] <PP_Weekly> I'm back in
09:48 [D] <twisty> aye to all of them
09:48 < jedb> the most objective way to check for controversy here would be to look at how the voting went for these motions last year
09:49 [D] <alexjago> jedb: yes, and the ones being put are the ones that passed lol
09:49 [D] <Morpheus> Question re PM-5? When "poverty rate" mentioned, is that measured by the Henderson Poverty Line?
09:49 < jedb> alexjago: no, I mean looking at how much they passed by, if it was just one vote or near unanimous
09:50 [D] <JohnA> While happy to vote together, note the UBI will struggle to meet poverty needs, the thing is to remove poverty traps and reduce the bureaucracy associated with welfare.
09:51 < jedb> the current jobseeker payment is doubled from the usual and that is very much temporary
09:51 [D] <Miles> MOTION approve PM1 domestic violence terminology
09:51 [D] <fred> aye
09:51 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
09:51 [D] <twisty> aye
09:51 [D] <alexjago> ⏱️  Voting closes in **three minutes**. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
09:51 < jedb> aye
09:51 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
09:51 [D] <Morpheus> Saw this recently on Twitter - seems reasonable idea to me
09:51 [D] <Morpheus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736400217326485514/income-act.jpeg
09:51 [D] <JohnA> aye
09:51 [D] <Satch> aye
09:51 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
09:51 [D] <Parduss> Aye
09:51 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
09:51 [D] <Morpheus> aye
09:51 < jedb> Morpheus: that's a picture for ants
09:52 [D] <BrandonS> aye
09:52 [D] <alexjago> Aye
09:52 [D] <JohnA> Morpheus: Hard to read ....
09:53 [D] <Morpheus> Sorry, not sure how to make it more readable.
09:53 < jedb> Morpheus: the problem is you linked a thumbnail, that's all
09:53 [D] <mandrke> @Morpheus 360x180!
09:53 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
09:53 [D] <Parduss> I have my own thoughts for the threshold of the UBI, but I'll push that agenda another time.
09:54 [D] <Morpheus> OK @Parduss
09:55 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** unanimously. Ayes 13 (fred, Pip Foweraker, twisty, Dr Liam, jedb, JohnA, Satch, FireABroadside, Parduss, 8MA_JBH, Morpheus, alexjago, Deadbeat)
09:56 [D] <Miles> MOTION approve PM2 update environmental policy
09:56 [D] <twisty> aye
09:56 [D] <Satch> aye
09:56 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
09:56 [D] <fred> aye
09:56 [D] <alexjago> Aye
09:56 < jedb> aye
09:56 [D] <Morpheus> aye
09:56 [D] <mandrke> aye
09:56 [D] <JohnA> aye
09:56 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
09:57 [D] <BrandonS> Aye
09:57 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
09:58 [D] <8MA_JBH> Ayw
09:58 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
09:59 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** 
09:59 [D] <alexjago> Ayes 13 (twisty, Satch, Pip Foweraker, fred, alexjago, jedb, Morpheus, mandrke, JohnA, Deadbeat, BrandonS, FireABroadside, 8MA_JBH)
10:00 [D] <Dr Liam> Damnit, I should just set a proxy vote for these or something, so I stop missing them. ^^;;
10:00 [D] <Miles> MOTION approve PM3 updated energy policy
10:00 [D] <twisty> aye
10:00 [D] <Morpheus> aye
10:00 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
10:00 [D] <Miles> aye
10:00 [D] <Satch> aye
10:00 [D] <alexjago> Aye
10:00 < jedb> aye
10:00 [D] <fred> aye
10:00 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
10:00 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
10:00 [D] <JohnA> aye
10:00 [D] <BrandonS> aye
10:01 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
10:01 [D] <mandrke> aye
10:01 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye.
10:03 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** 
10:03 [D] <alexjago> Ayes 15 (twisty, Morpheus, Dr Liam, Miles, Satch, alexjago, jedb, fred, Deadbeat, Pip Foweraker, JohnA, BrandonS, 8MA_JBH, mandrke, FireABroadside)
10:06 [D] <Satch> MOTION: Amendment to PM-4; remove the figure of '10 billion dollars' from the wording and replace it with something more flexible.
10:07 [D] <JohnA> SECOND: above motion ( if we need seconding)
10:09 [D] <mandrke> MOTION: Change the Dollar Value Cap to be a floor Value
10:09 [D] <mandrke> Miles's motion ^
10:11 [D] <Pip Foweraker> "At least" or "In excess of"
10:11 [D] <Pip Foweraker> "Not less than:
10:11 [D] <twisty> so, why haven't we talked about this like ... months ago?
10:11 [D] <mandrke> MOTION: Change the dollar value cap to be a floor value (edited)
10:12 [D] <Parduss> Not less than would be a good idea, it's formal enough, but too formal.
10:12 [D] <alexjago> @twisty I mean I put all these up on the wiki back with the initial congress admin
10:12 [D] <Satch> iMOTION: Amendment to PM-4; remove the figure of '10 billion dollars' from the wording and replace it with 'a commitment to allocating the funds necessary to overcome an existential crisis.'
10:13 < jedb> that wording doesn't fit
10:14 [D] <twisty> feels like ... policy on the run
10:14 < jedb> twisty: gonna have more of that right now, I'm guessing
10:15 < jedb> if I remember right PM-5 had some controversy last year, had to have the figures reworked, but ultimately passed
10:15 < jedb> could be wrong though
10:15 [D] <Parduss> I would suggest satch, floor value, it sounds less "let's bankrupt ourselves" but it does ensure the removal of a cap.
10:15 < jedb> the reworking of the figures can be seen in how the proposed change doesn't quite match up with the rationale anymore
10:17 [D] <Parduss> Also I'd suggest, not every form of work is legitimate. (Bullshit Jobs)
10:17 [D] <Satch> Qualitative easing.
10:19 < jedb> jobseeker is a flat doubling of newstart as far as I'm aware
10:19 < jedb> or something like that
10:19 [D] <8MA_JBH> Only issue with Jobseeker was it doesn't taper
10:19 [D] <Dr Liam> There's also that whole #RetainTheRate campaign as well.
10:19 [D] <FireABroadside> Living Incomes for Everyone.
10:20 [D] <mandrke> no, Jobseeker is currently consitsts a remamed Newstart and a nurrent COVID supplement of $550
10:20 [D] <mandrke> no, Jobseeker is currently consists a renamed Newstart and a current COVID supplement of $550 (edited)
10:20 < jedb> mandrke: oh, is that how it works? my mistake
10:20 [D] <Dr Liam> I would personally be in favour of a UBI at the current Jobseeker + COVID supplement rate.
10:20 [D] <Morpheus> AP and DSP should have been included as well, not just given the 2x payments
10:21 [D] <Parduss> I would suggest the threshold be at the average income, with the rate being around 20-25%, but I believe it's foolish for me to attempt to sell you guys on that idea right now.
10:21 < jedb> COMMENT: the poverty line mentioned in the rationale is a relative poverty line, whereas the UBI is more meant to cover absolute poverty
10:22 < jedb> COMMENT: it's probably a bad idea to put temporary payments into long term policy
10:22 [D] <Parduss> Agreed jedb
10:23 [D] <8MA_JBH> Just FYI RBA to date already funded over $80bn of govt spending. Tbh normally I would be skeptical of large UBI payments accompanied by deficit spending, but reality is under COVID consumption is constrained and people need the income support. It could probably replace JobKeeper as well as private companies furlough workers
10:23 < jedb> lol, if you can't live on $28600 you aren't trying
10:23 < jedb> (...or you're trying to live in Sydney...)
10:23 [D] <8MA_JBH> Yeah I live off less than that lol and I'm living in North Melbourne
10:24 [D] <Morpheus> You can survive on a much lessor amount, but is that living when you have to cut corners and juggle bills/payments?
10:24 [D] <Dr Liam> If you're paying $410 a week rent (which can get a decent townhouse in the outer suburbs of Brisbane), you're already paying $21,320 a year in rent alone.
10:24 [D] <JohnA> COMMENT: There's a tension between the UBI being financially affordable and it providing a sufficient living allowance. At least, it would remove poverty traps regardless.
10:24 [D] <Parduss> COMMENT: Your lifestyle is more expensive whilst working, uniforms, haircuts, etc.
10:25 [D] <Morpheus> Has it not been stated that if all the 700+ corporations who pay no tax, actually paid it, we would have enough every 3 months for 3 years of Living Wage Payments?
10:26 [D] <mandrke> jedb, what about hope?
10:26 [D] <8MA_JBH> COMMENT: I'm happy to support increasing the payment or just removing an amount and specifying it be indexed to the poverty line or something
10:26 [D] <twisty> tax the rich!
10:27 [D] <Morpheus> Yes, not more tax cuts as proposed.
10:27 [D] <twisty> I'm keyboard only for a while
10:27 [D] <Parduss> 8MA I'll point you towards my idea of the threshold being the avg income... but you'll hear enough of that in time. 😛
10:27 < jedb> 8MA_JBH: you still have to specify *what* poverty line, since the absolute poverty line makes sense, but the relative poverty line (which is what is generally referred to in developed countries) would screw things up on multiple levels
10:27 [D] <Morpheus> I like the idea of #income act as proposed by lobbyco on twitter - that is the poster I shared before
10:27 [D] <8MA_JBH> COMMENT: There's also a question here of why not just deal with rent costs via rent assistance?
10:28 [D] <Morpheus> ACOSS uses Henderson Poverty Line
10:28 < jedb> Morpheus: do you have a full size image link, or a twitter link?
10:28 [D] <Morpheus> https://twitter.com/lobbycoorg
10:29 [D] <twisty> and ... ya know, we could have had these discussions months ago instead of clogging Congress
10:29 [D] <Satch> That's always the case @twisty
10:29 < jedb> Morpheus: just checked, I think the proposed rate of $360 a week should be above the Henderson line
10:29 [D] <Morpheus> check media, down about 4 or 5 posts. We could have, but I haven't been able to find you blokes until today!
10:29 [D] <Satch> That's why we have these meetings.
10:29 [D] <twisty> it shouldn't be
10:30 [D] <alexjago> COMMENT: existing policy supports retaining rent assistance for low income earners
10:30 [D] <Parduss> @mandrake living on noodles!
10:30 [D] <Morpheus> Baked beans slightly healthier IMHO.
10:30 [D] <JohnA> twisty : FWIW, I had visions of running such forums in between congresses. But we did have our constitutional issues, amongst others.
10:31 [D] <twisty> I know @JohnA
10:31 [D] <Parduss> Well rent assistance can be handled on the LVT side of things IMHO.
10:32 [D] <Parduss> (Sorry if off topic at times :P)
10:32 [D] <Pip Foweraker> COMMENT: I am in favour of the ACOSS poverty line as a measurement. They have the best data as far as I know.
10:32 < jedb> COMMENT: we could amend it to put it in line with an absolute poverty line, perhaps? but even that could have issues since cost of living differs significantly depending on location
10:33 [D] <mandrke> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Edp0gisUwAI_swK?format=jpg&name=medium
10:33 [D] <8MA_JBH> Point is we should be thinking of adequate UBI amounts in terms of owner-occupiers and treat renters as a seperate issue.
10:33 [D] <8MA_JBH> Rent assistance isn't designed well currently but it's still a valid way to deal with housing costs
10:33 [D] <twisty> at least pirates are talking ...
10:34 < jedb> an international absolute poverty line makes no sense in an Australian context
10:34 < jedb> by "absolute poverty line" I mean average minimal cost of living in current day Australia
10:35 [D] <8MA_JBH> (note rent assistance currently feeds into higher rents because it increases as rent payments increase. If it were a fixed payment it would be less of an issue)
10:35 [D] <Parduss> jedb, the location thing, being a problem, is likely to stay a problem.
10:36 [D] <Pip Foweraker> http://povertyandinequality.acoss.org.au/poverty/
10:36 [D] <Pip Foweraker> $457 a week for a single adult living alone; or $960 a week for a couple with 2 children.
10:36 [D] <Pip Foweraker> In ACOSS' 2020 figures
10:36 [D] <twisty> is it lunch-time yet?
10:36 < jedb> poverty as X% of average income is a relative poverty line measure, which is an issue, yes
10:36 [D] <Morpheus> Yes, having mine as we chat!
10:37 [D] <Parduss> jedb, i suggest a % of avg income, because once in place, you don't need to tweak it, and it also has a lot of bonuses we can talk about another time.
10:37 < jedb> Pip Foweraker: that link explicitly mentions poverty being defined as a percentage of median income, which is a relative poverty line
10:38 [D] <Parduss> The cost of living in better areas, becomes an incentive for self improvement, (just a consideration)
10:39 [D] <Morpheus> Is mean average weekly income a good measure or would the mode weekly income be better? Is the former not distored by some people in very high wages?
10:39 [D] <JohnA> Question - what is our UBI policy trying to achieve?
10:39 [D] <alexjago> @Morpheus - median is largely undistorted.
10:40 [D] <Satch> The current Jobseeker payments are ~28,600 / fortnight.
10:40 [D] <Satch> sorry, per yer
10:40 [D] <Satch> based on 11,000 / fortnight.
10:40 [D] <Parduss> catch... I was going to say 😛
10:40 [D] <Parduss> satch... I was going to say 😛 (edited)
10:40 [D] <Satch> 1,100*
10:40 [D] <Satch> double fail! 😛
10:40 [D] <mandrke> Mode (most common / Federal min wage)?
10:41 [D] <Satch> 😦 I'll go to my corner now...
10:41 [D] <Parduss> Sounds good
10:41 [D] <fred> Aye
10:41 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I agree with the proposal to break for lunch and we can all go check our math 🙂
10:41 [D] <Satch> aye
10:41 [D] <JohnA> happy to go to lunch.
10:41  * [D] <Pip Foweraker> looks at Satch
10:41 [D] <fred> Aye
10:41 [D] <JohnA> aye
10:42 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: break for lunch
10:42 [D] <Miles> 
10:42 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
10:42 [D] <Miles> aye
10:42 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
10:42 [D] <Morpheus> aye
10:42 [D] <mandrke> aye
10:42 [D] <Parduss> Aye
10:42 [D] <fred> Aye
10:42 [D] <Satch> aye
10:42 [D] <twisty> aye
10:42 [D] <Parduss> Lunch is on Miles...
10:42 [D] <fred> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736413060603838524/image0.jpg
10:42 [D] <alexjago> Aye
10:42 [D] <Parduss> OK, Lunch is on fred.
10:43 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I'm roasting chicken for lunch. Must be the day for chook
10:43 [D] <Morpheus> err Lunch is at Fred's!
10:43 [D] <Parduss> I'll do my left over KFC.
10:44 [D] <alexjago> Aye
10:44 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
10:45 [D] <twisty> KFC? ... https://www.businessinsider.com.au/kfc-will-test-3d-printed-lab-grown-chicken-nuggets-this-fall-2020-7
10:45 [D] <PP_Weekly> Fresh pineapple, mango, and papaya time
10:45 [D] <Miles> motion passed
10:45 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED**
10:45 [D] <alexjago> 
10:45 [D] <alexjago> It's lunch time!
10:45 [D] <alexjago> 
10:45 [D] <alexjago> Back at 13:45 AEST

##### Lunch chit-chat removed for brevity. ####################################

11:47 [D] <alexjago> **RESUMING FROM LUNCH**
11:47 [D] <Parduss> I will say, this conversation, whilst not resolving anything, has increased my comfort level within this party.
11:47 [D] <alexjago> We are online.
11:47 [D] <PP_Weekly> "It should never be the responsibility of the marginalized to defend their right to not be discriminated against through rational argument." @Satch
11:50 < jedb> ...are we back?
11:51  * jedb can't hear anything
11:51 [D] <Miles> yes we're back
11:51 < jedb> oh, there we go
11:51 [D] <Miles> audio is back
11:55 [D] <BrandonS> I’ve had to go remote so forgive me for any lack of meaningful content til I’m back in front of my desktop
11:55 < jedb> COMMENT: something that hasn't been mentioned yet, is that there is a balancing act here between a high enough rate for people to decently survive on, but a low enough rate that there is still significant incentive to participate in the economy
11:56 [D] <Parduss> jedb, I think LVT helps on that end of things.
11:57 [D] <Parduss> (Isn't the Job Guarantee up for removal?)
11:57 < jedb> Parduss: it is, yes
11:57 [D] <JohnA> jedb: something I write about in my article, and the site is in maintenance mode 😦
11:57 [D] <alexjago> JG is up for removal, but that doesn't mean we should
11:57 [D] <PP_Weekly> None of the visuals on discord are on YouTube. It's audio only
11:57 < jedb> federal minimum wage is around $35-36k for full time, I believe... although that could be outdated since I last checked
11:58 [D] <Miles> https://meet.jit.si/PiratePartyAustraliaCongress2020
11:58 [D] <Satch> Sorry, Rachel's 10yo has my gel blaster. If you hear any gunshots, it's just a toy. 😉
11:58 [D] <Satch> nephew*
11:59 [D] <Parduss> Tomorrow, we hear about some guy, shot by his newphew.
11:59 [D] <Parduss> Tomorrow, we hear about some guy, shot by his nephew. (edited)
11:59 [D] <Satch> The police came here a couple of months back, because a neighbour called the cops. They were fine about it.
12:00  * jedb sighs
12:00 < jedb> the numbers of this policy always makes it tricky to deal with
12:01 [D] <Pip Foweraker> This is a motion to table then?
12:02 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: table PM 5 until the start of Sunday
12:02 [D] <Miles> 
12:02 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
12:02 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
12:02 [D] <fred> Aye
12:02 [D] <mandrke> aye
12:02 [D] <Parduss> Aye
12:02 [D] <twisty> aye
12:02 < jedb> abstain
12:02 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
12:02 [D] <8MA_JBH> Abstain
12:02 [D] <Satch> aye
12:02 [D] <alexjago> Nay
12:02 [D] <Miles> aye
12:03 [D] <JohnA> aye
12:03 [D] <alexjago> (I support tabling to Sunday, just elections first)
12:03 [D] <mandrke> nay
12:03 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Nay (edited)
12:03 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Nay (Prefer after elections) (edited)
12:04 [D] <FireABroadside> abstain
12:05 [D] <Parduss> Exactly my thought
12:05 [D] <alexjago> Ayes 7, Nays 2, Abstains 2
12:07 [D] <Pip Foweraker> John is in Jitsi at least
12:08 [D] <alexjago> @8MA_JBH I want to invite you to the Jitsi for this one
12:11 [D] <8MA_JBH> Kind of awkward timing for me as I'm actually in another zoom call until 3pm
12:12 [D] <alexjago> @8MA_JBH ok, fair
12:12 [D] <Morpheus> Some of us are.
12:15 < jedb> this is an awful lot of dancing around the point
12:16 [D] <alexjago> I have asked Liam to not say exactly what he's proposing to try and avoid influencing the standing orders proc motion. I want people to vote on the proc motion on its merits
12:16 < jedb> yes, the proposal is policy on the run, and no, the policy as it stands is not untenable at all
12:16 [D] <Pip Foweraker> QUESTION: Can I clarify that Liam seeks to [procedure] to remove a policy and explicitly not replace it at this point
12:17 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Thanks for the clarification
12:17 < jedb> why does authoritarianism keep trying to creep in?
12:18 [D] <8MA_JBH> Is this still talking about JG? Sorry hard to follow what's being said from audio while in another call
12:18 [D] <alexjago> @8MA_JBH no
12:18 [D] <8MA_JBH> Cheers
12:18 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I don't think this rises to authoritarianism and question the good intent of phrasing it that way
12:20 < jedb> this is nowhere near free speech absolutism
12:20 [D] <Miles> @8MA_JBH proposal to repeal the policy that says we get rid of 18C
12:21 [D] <Miles> *we want to
12:21 [D] <8MA_JBH> Fair enough
12:21 [D] <8MA_JBH> I think I can follow line of argument
12:23 < jedb> COMMENT: what's happened over the years is that the left side of politics, which PPAU has usually associated with, has become more restrictive, authoritarian, and anti-free speech, while PPAU itself has not moved, and following others into anti-free speech stances is not a good solution
12:23 [D] <JohnA> agree position statement better way to go.
12:24 < jedb> there wouldn't be any replacement as long as we actually stand for free speech, as seen with the first amendment in the United States
12:24 [D] <Miles> https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2014C00014
12:24 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Platform#Freedom_of_speech
12:24 [D] <Pip Foweraker> COMMENT: Liam's proposed approach doesn't require us to solve the 18c problem right now if I understand it correctly.
12:25 [D] <Miles> @Satch some comments here
12:25 [D] <alexjago> @Pip Foweraker no, but jedb is opposed to any change at all
12:26 [D] <JohnA> I think this should have been put on notice well in advance, though to be fair Liam may not have been aware of the impending meeting.
12:27 < jedb> COMMENT: as I said last year, the assertion that this is causing us harm is not substantiated at the ballot box
12:27 [D] <Pip Foweraker> COMMENT: I'm not certain what specific evidence there is for that compared to the counterfactual where it is causing us harm @Jedb
12:27 [D] <JohnA> jedb: yes, fair point, we had a good WA result in spite of / because of our 18C position, as you pointed out last year.
12:30 [D] <alexjago> QUESTION: what if, in the existing policy, we made it "*after* ensuring"
12:30 < jedb> COMMENT: just so everyone is aware: as evidenced by the first amendment in the United States, if we establish free speech in a bill of rights then 18C will become invalid anyway
12:31 [D] <Miles> QUESTION: what about instead of "Repeal" we say "Reform" ?
12:32 < jedb> COMMENT: no, there is no such thing as hate speech laws in the United States, they have always been consistently ruled unconstitutional
12:32 [D] <Parduss> Yeah I agree with alex.
12:33 [D] <Parduss> Whilst our policy, may or may not be the best, but you can't stop people from saying "I will never agree"
12:33 [D] <Dr Liam> There are absolutely limitations to free speech in the US, even if there's no such thing as explicit hate speech laws.
12:34 [D] <Dr Liam> You can't yell fire in a crowded theatre, etc.
12:34 < jedb> Dr Liam: citation needed, the limitations on free speech in the US are not to do with hate speech but rather to do with obscenity
12:34 [D] <Parduss> That incitement
12:34 [D] <Parduss> That's incitement (edited)
12:34 [D] <PP_Weekly> Hate speech falls under 1st amendment protected rights in the U.S and is usually ruled  legally protected speech by the Supreme Court
12:35 [D] <PP_Weekly> Yelling fire isn't hate speech it's inciting a riot
12:35 [D] <Parduss> Agreed PP
12:35 [D] <Pip Foweraker> We can hear you John 🙂
12:36 [D] <PP_Weekly> Laws against hate speech can be divided into two types: those intended to preserve public order and those intended to protect human dignity. The laws designed to protect public order require that a higher threshold be violated, so they are not often enforced.
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> Motion
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> Remove from our platform the line "Repeal section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth), ensuring that pre-existing common law protections are sufficient to manage all cases of intimidation and harassment."
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> 
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> Rationale
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> There are without doubt significant problems with racial discrimination in Australia today.
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> 
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> Regardless of whatever best intentions we may have with proposing the repeal of section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth), the lack of a clear replacement for 18C in our policy platform risks PPAU being seen as intentionally weakening protections against discrimination. This has already actively impacted on our ability to recruit and retain members, and to form posi <clipped message>
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> tive relationships with other political and civil society groups who should be natural allies for us. 
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> 
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> Until such time as we can elaborate on a proposed legislative replacement for section 18C, it is thus not in the best interests of the party to currently propose a repeal of 18C in our policies. 
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> 
12:39 [D] <Dr Liam> If and when this policy is eventually reintroduced, it should not be presented as "Repealing section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth)", but rather as "Introducing [insert policy here]. These enhanced protections would replace those currently outlined in section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth)"
12:39 < jedb> Dr Liam: I would like to see your evidence of significant problems with racial discrimination in Australia today, but that's a matter for the forum
12:41 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Let's vote!
12:41 [D] <Dr Liam> Motion: To suspend such of the standing orders that would prevent a proposal for changing policy be made from the floor
12:42 [D] <Satch> aye
12:42 [D] <Miles> ```Suspend 1 (a) and (b) of the standing orders for the duration of Congress 2020 Day 1```
12:42 < jedb> nay
12:42 [D] <Miles> hang on we're still working on motion text
12:43 [D] <Dr Liam> To suspend such of the standing orders that would prevent a proposal for changing policy be made from the floor (edited)
12:43 < jedb> policy on the run based on anecdotal evidence from a political segment known for using targeted anecdotal harrassment to get what they want, sounds legit
12:43 [D] <Miles> ```Suspend 1 (a) and 1 (b) of the standing orders for the duration of Congress 2020 Day 1``` (edited)
12:43 [D] <alexjago> Suggested wording
12:43 [D] <alexjago> ```
12:43 [D] <alexjago> Suspend this part of the standing orders:
12:43 [D] <alexjago> 
12:43 [D] <alexjago> (1) Motions to amend the platform or policies (including introducing new policies)
12:43 [D] <alexjago> must 
12:43 [D] <alexjago> (a) be announced in writing at least two (2) days prior to the National Congress, and
12:43 [D] <alexjago> (b) may not be proposed on the floor.
12:43 [D] <alexjago> ```
12:44 [D] <Dr Liam> I would be happy with that wording @alexjago
12:44 [D] <alexjago> Suggested wording
12:44 [D] <alexjago> ```
12:44 [D] <alexjago> Suspend this part of the standing orders:
12:44 [D] <alexjago> 
12:44 [D] <alexjago> (1) Motions to amend the platform or policies (including introducing new policies)
12:44 [D] <alexjago>  
12:44 [D] <alexjago> (a) must be announced in writing at least two (2) days prior to the National Congress, and
12:44 [D] <alexjago> (b) may not be proposed on the floor.
12:44 [D] <alexjago> ``` (edited)
12:45 < jedb> it wasn't just WA, the votes for PPAU were up across the board if I remember right
12:45 [D] <Parduss> That's the "piracy means we didn't get paid, because 100% of those people would've bought our product" situation.
12:46 [D] <alexjago> oh, and 
12:46 [D] <alexjago> 
12:46 [D] <alexjago> ```
12:46 [D] <alexjago> Any further policy motions are to be treated as announced motions
12:46 [D] <alexjago> ```
12:47 [D] <Dr Liam> Motion: To suspend this part of the standing orders:
12:47 [D] <Dr Liam> 
12:47 [D] <Dr Liam> (1) Motions to amend the platform or policies (including introducing new policies)
12:47 [D] <Dr Liam>  
12:47 [D] <Dr Liam> (a) must be announced in writing at least two (2) days prior to the National Congress, and
12:47 [D] <Dr Liam> (b) may not be proposed on the floor.
12:47 [D] <Dr Liam> 
12:47 [D] <Dr Liam> Any further policy motions are to be treated as announced motions
12:47 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Seconded
12:47 [D] <Satch> technically yes.
12:48 [D] <Satch> aye
12:48 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
12:48 [D] <Miles> place your votes now
12:48 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
12:48 [D] <Miles> nay
12:48 [D] <fred> Aye
12:48 < jedb> nah
12:48 [D] <JohnA> nay
12:48 [D] <Morpheus> nay
12:48 < jedb> nay*
12:48 [D] <Parduss> Nay
12:48 [D] <alexjago> abstain
12:48 [D] <Deadbeat> Nay
12:48 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
12:48 [D] <mandrke> abstain
12:49 [D] <8MA_JBH> Abstain
12:50 [D] <Parduss> I've done snake in a plastic bag.
12:51 [D] <Miles> close voting
12:51 [D] <alexjago> Count: 
12:51 [D] <alexjago> 
12:51 [D] <alexjago> Ayes 5 (Satch, Pip, Liam, Fred, FireABroadside) ; Nays 6 (Miles, JohnA, Morpheus, jedb, Parduss, Deadbeat); Abstain 3 (alexjago, mandrke, 8MA_JBH)
12:52 [D] <Parduss> That's my count
12:52 [D] <Satch> Motion fails.
12:52 [D] <FireABroadside> Accurate count by me.
12:53 [D] <Parduss> I agree the policy needs to be reformed, but I think we need to change it thru different means.
12:53 [D] <Morpheus> I would like discussion and some time to consider the broad implications.
12:53 < jedb> there's a saying about the river of truth that's relevant here...
12:54 < jedb> COMMENT: rewriting it won't really help, because as long as it is explicitly pointed out it will be taken out of context by those who don't like free speech
12:56 [D] <Dr Liam> Response to jebd: Painting people who have been the victims of discrimination as opposing a repeal of 18C because they "don't like free speech" is victim blaming.
12:56 [D] <Parduss> I think the "insult and offend" being removed is the best solution, and whilst I sympathise with Liam not getting the warning he needed, I am not comfortable with suspending standing orders.
12:58 < jedb> Dr Liam: have you considered the angle that if 18C does not exist, then any racial discrimination is likely to become more visible, easier to prove, and thus easier to remedy?
13:02 [D] <alexjago> @8MA_JBH again, I invite you to the jitsi for this one as soon as you can get there
13:02 < jedb> that comment was about 18C, sorry
13:03 [D] <8MA_JBH> My zoom is almost finished
13:03 [D] <8MA_JBH> I think John's point on the JG is fair enough.
13:03 [D] <8MA_JBH> I will make the comment that the policy as it stands is still a "trial". But I would be okay if the policy is more marginalised or scaled down, or turned into a position statement. I note as it stands our policy is already less ambitious than the Green's proposal for a JG, although they focus on people <30 whereas we focus on people who are in the greatest need
13:03 [D] <mandrke> https://meet.jit.si/PiratePartyAustraliaCongress2020
13:03 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Folks, this is off topiuc
13:04 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Folks, this is off topic (edited)
13:04 [D] <Satch> BLM is entirely off our charts.
13:04 [D] <8MA_JBH> 6B at a glance looks okay to me, but I need to read it again before I take a position
13:04 [D] <Parduss> I would disagree Liam, I think the US is because of the censorship route.
13:05 [D] <Parduss> But that's for another time
13:06 [D] <8MA_JBH> The question I ask is the problem the policy itself or the policy text explaining it?
13:07 [D] <Miles> the JG policy rationale is 1696 words, the policy itself is 162 words
13:08 < jedb> I like 6B - the JG policy has always had a problem with being too big
13:08 [D] <Satch> Both. Some are practicaly relevant while others pertain to party positions, which change over time in light of reality.
13:09 [D] <alexjago> 6B is John trying to compromise
13:09 [D] <8MA_JBH> My current position is I would vote nay to 6A, and abstain from 6B
13:09 [D] <Parduss> I think JG is the authoritarian version of UBI, so 6A is mt preference.
13:10 [D] <Parduss> I think JG is the authoritarian version of UBI, so 6A is my preference. (edited)
13:10 [D] <Deadbeat> The JG is possible in the context of MMT. If MMT is sound so is the JG.
13:10 [D] <Parduss> Yeah MMT is JG
13:10 < jedb> Parduss: how is JG authoritarian?
13:10 [D] <Parduss> And vice versa.
13:10 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I think 6A then 6B makes sense as 6B can be withdrawn if 6A passes, from a procedural perspective
13:11 [D] <twisty> I'll be aye for 6a&b. less is more. JG is an illusion when there aren't any jobs.
13:12 [D] <Parduss> They both do the same thing, help people improve their lives, JG is narrowing the field of how you can do it.
13:12 [D] <Deadbeat> The JG is not an illusion when jobs are deliberately created and funded as a result of deliberate policy (MMT).
13:13 [D] <8MA_JBH> I'll be able to speak to this in a min
13:14 [D] <Morpheus> The problem is coming with the use of more and more AI and robots that the unit cost of production will drop so low, that humans can't be employed in meaningful ways in meaningful numbers. A JG is not going to work when there are minimal human jobs.
13:14 [D] <8MA_JBH> Alright I'm free now if someone wants to get me on jitsi
13:15 [D] <alexjago> @Morpheus I've previously characterised the JG as a mechanism to change what we think of as work
13:15 [D] <Parduss> Morph, I also don't see the automation as a bad thing.
13:15 [D] <Deadbeat> The point of MMT is that it will create jobs for those who want them. Socially useful jobs.
13:16 [D] <Morpheus> It isn't, and I agree @alexjango that what a job and work is needs a complete rethink.
13:16 [D] <Satch> AFK < 4 minutes...
13:18 < jedb> Parduss: UBI fails to incentivise people to produce anything in the economy and thus has issues with idleness, while JG fails to provide a safety net those who cannot work and can't deal with a lack of jobs, and thus has issues with increasing automation
13:19 [D] <Parduss> Jedb, with LVT (part of our platform) there is incentive.
13:19 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @jedb my understanding is that trials of UBI have not produced any evidence with idleness problems?
13:19 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @jedb my understanding is that trials of UBI have not produced any evidence of increased idleness problems? (edited)
13:19 [D] <Morpheus> I thought UBI researched showed good outcomes for better health, lower crime and in generally better wellbeing?
13:19 [D] <Parduss> It's hard to sell the "there is no idleness" aspect of UBI...
13:20 < jedb> irc/discord doesn't really work for discussing this in detail...
13:21 < jedb> Parduss: LVT?
13:22 < jedb> nevermind, found it
13:23 < jedb> Parduss: and no, LVT does not provide incentive, since presumably any UBI will always be at a sufficient level for a person to survive on
13:23 [D] <Parduss> Depending on where they live.
13:23 [D] <Parduss> And cheaper areas, tend to be less desirable.
13:24 [D] <Satch> There will always be a socio-economic disparity, often segregated geographically.
13:24 [D] <Parduss> Yup, agreed satch.
13:24 < jedb> Parduss: depending almost entirely on whether they own property - there are very few places where rent is outright unaffordable in any way for UBI levels of income
13:25  * jedb glares at Sydney
13:25 [D] <Parduss> And watch people move the hell away from Sydney, for extra disposable income 😛
13:25 < jedb> which is arguably a feature :P
13:26 [D] <Parduss> It is a feature IMO.
13:26 < jedb> yeah, I think state govts have been trying to get people to do that for a while...
13:27 [D] <Parduss> (I hope we're good with excessive discussion)
13:27 [D] <Satch> jedb, if you want me to mention your comments, plese preface it with COMMENT.
13:27 < jedb> Satch: you may safely assume that if I do not preface my comments with COMMENT, then I do not expect them to be mentioned
13:27 [D] <Miles> MOTION TEXT: amend PM-6B to replace ```Remove the Job Guarantee Policy and replace it with a section endorsing the limited experimentation of novel economic ideas, as per the following:``` with ```Replace the rationale for 'Trial a Job Guarantee scheme' up to but excluding 'Restoring the Commonwealth Employment Service' with the following text:```
13:27 [D] <Miles> ^ dont vote yet
13:28 [D] <Miles> im not sure if irc captured that formating... jedb can you read that alright?
13:28 [D] <Parduss> Satch assume, we're chatting amongst ourselves, whilst sitting next to each other in the the hall that's been rented out.
13:28 < jedb> Miles: yeah, it's fine
13:31 [D] <Parduss> If we haven't seen it for 100 years, nobody has seen it.
13:33 < jedb> Parduss: that is the problem with dealing with pandemics these days
13:34 [D] <fred> Question: is JG replacement for UBI?
13:34 [D] <alexjago> @fred no
13:34 [D] <Miles> our JG is intended to run side by side with UBI
13:35 [D] <fred> But they are basically competing with each other, aren’t they?
13:36 [D] <Miles> no
13:36 [D] <Miles> even with a JG some people will be unable to work, and even if they are able to work the guaranteed job might not be fulfilling or meaningful for them
13:36 [D] <PP_Weekly> JG w/UBI ensures both recipients are contributing to the economy by enabling them to be consumers.
13:37 [D] <Pip Foweraker> This has been a really good discussion!
13:38 < jedb> the usefulness of JG vs UBI can be viewed as mostly depending on how automated society is; in a pre-industrial-revolution society you'd want pure JG, and in a post-scarcity society you'd want pure UBI
13:39 [D] <Parduss> Jedb, you did have JG (as these guys are explaining it) in the pre-ind society.
13:39 [D] <Parduss> Lords/landowners would hire people for busywork.
13:39 [D] <Miles> yeah under feudal structures lords would often attempt to recruit wandering peasants by providing incentives to settle down
13:40 [D] <Miles> a better example is in pre-settled organic societies where everyone in the tribe (really, extended family group) would contribute to the welfare of the group
13:40 [D] <Miles> ie if you're strong and fast, you would hunt, if not you could gather berries, if not you could still weave or cook or care for kids
13:40 [D] <Miles> everyone contributed
13:41 [D] <PP_Weekly> (The comment Alex made earlier) that any UBI w/JG program must include food stamps & housing subsidies to be truly useful to the recipients
13:42 [D] <alexjago> everyone has to eat, UBI should cover food costs
13:42 < jedb> I don't see why food stamps and housing subsidies should be necessary...
13:42 [D] <mandrke> Australia does not provide food stamps, only income managed (Food stamps is mostly for the farmers anyway)
13:43 [D] <Miles> @PP_Weekly actually our UBI is intended to be high enough that food stamps and housing subsidies are unnecessary
13:43 [D] <mandrke> Australia does not provide food stamps, only income managed cards currently(Food stamps is mostly for the farmers anyway) (edited)
13:43 [D] <Miles> we just pay people enough so they dont need assistance with housing or food
13:43 [D] <mandrke> Australia does not provide food stamps, only income managed cards currently (Food stamps is mostly for the farmers anyway) (edited)
13:43 [D] <alexjago> hey, we support rent assistance
13:44 < jedb> alexjago: rent assistance should be folded into UBI, imo
13:44 [D] <PP_Weekly> "we just pay people enough so they dont need assistance with housing or food" - Miles
13:44 [D] <PP_Weekly> 
13:44 [D] <PP_Weekly> Exactly!!
13:44 [D] <Miles> i agree with jedb
13:45 [D] <Parduss> If you still need rent assistance, LVT.
13:45 [D] <Miles> MOTION TEXT: amend PM-6B to replace 
13:45 [D] <Miles> ```Remove the Job Guarantee Policy and replace it with a section endorsing the limited experimentation of novel economic ideas, as per the following:```
13:45 [D] <Miles>  with 
13:45 [D] <Miles> ```Replace the rationale for 'Trial a Job Guarantee scheme' up to but excluding 'Restoring the Commonwealth Employment Service' with the following text:```
13:45 [D] <Miles> ^ dont vote yet
13:47 [D] <mandrke> https://web.archive.org/web/20191113205554/https://www.neweconomy.org.au/journal/issues/vol1/iss7/ubi-versus-the-job-guarantee/
13:48 [D] <JohnA> Not my article !!1
13:48 [D] <PP_Weekly> I wish people didn't pit JG vs UBI and just let both policies coexist.
13:49 [D] <PP_Weekly> It's a huge point of contention in the United States for example Yang vs Bernie. JG was Bernie vs Yang's UBI.
13:49 [D] <Miles> #yanggang
13:50 [D] <Satch> @JohnA I think your policies are idealistic, but not practical. People arent'
13:50 [D] <Satch> always nice.
13:50 [D] <Parduss> I wanted to see a Yang/Gabbard ticket.
13:50 [D] <Miles> a UBI ticks more boxes than a JG, but i think our JG proposal is complimentary to a UBI
13:51 [D] <Pip Foweraker> COMMENT: We are running short on time. Should we timebox remaining discussions or are the Chairs OK to run over time?
13:51 < jedb> PP_Weekly: I wish we could quarantine US political breakdowns to the US instead of letting it leak over here all the time...
13:54 [D] <Satch> Trump picking his nose.
13:54 [D] <Satch> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736461319213023253/a592bd63871d4963fb7394c735752d68.png
13:54 [D] <alexjago> MOTION: 
13:54 [D] <alexjago> 
13:54 [D] <alexjago> Amend 6A's motion to "Remove the Job Guarantee policy in its entirety, except for the Commonwealth Employment Service elements"
13:54 [D] <alexjago> Amend 6B's motion to insert "by breaking out the Commonwealth Employment Service elements into a new section and replacing it with a section..."
13:55 [D] <alexjago> MOTION: 
13:55 [D] <alexjago> 
13:55 [D] <alexjago> Amend 6A's motion to "Remove the Job Guarantee policy in its entirety, except for the Commonwealth Employment Service elements"
13:55 [D] <alexjago> Amend 6B's motion to insert "by breaking out the Commonwealth Employment Service elements into a new section and replacing the remaining Job Guarantee Policy with a section..." (edited)
13:55 [D] <PP_Weekly> Corona changes the whole UBI/JG discussion.
13:56 [D] <alexjago> MOTION: 
13:56 [D] <alexjago> 
13:56 [D] <alexjago> Amend 6A's motion to "Remove the Job Guarantee policy in its entirety, except for the Commonwealth Employment Service elements"
13:56 [D] <alexjago> Amend 6B's motion to begin with "Remove the Job Guarantee Policy by breaking out the Commonwealth Employment Service elements into a new section and replacing the remaining Job Guarantee Policy with a section..." (edited)
13:56 [D] <alexjago> Finalised MOTION: 
13:56 [D] <alexjago> 
13:56 [D] <alexjago> Amend 6A's motion to "Remove the Job Guarantee policy in its entirety, except for the Commonwealth Employment Service elements"
13:56 [D] <alexjago> Amend 6B's motion to begin with "Remove the Job Guarantee Policy by breaking out the Commonwealth Employment Service elements into a new section and replacing the remaining Job Guarantee Policy with a section..."
13:58 [D] <alexjago> * new policy, not new section
13:58 [D] <8MA_JBH> I agree, can vote on 6A today
13:58 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Sounds good on proposed voting today and tomorrow approach
14:00 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: adjourn congress until sunday 10am
14:00 [D] <Miles> 
14:00 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
14:00 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
14:00 [D] <Miles> aye
14:00 [D] <alexjago> Aye
14:00 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
14:00 [D] <mandrke> aye
14:00 [D] <Parduss> Aye
14:00 < jedb> abstain
14:00 [D] <Deadbeat> Nay
14:00 [D] <Satch> Adjourn and drink rum until the 'morrow.
14:00 [D] <twisty> aye
14:00 [D] <8MA_JBH> Abstain
14:00 [D] <Satch> aye
14:00 [D] <JohnA> aye
14:00 [D] <Morpheus> aye
14:01 [D] <FireABroadside> Abstain
14:01 [D] <fred> Aye
14:01 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Anything coming from under a bed is concerning to me
14:01 [D] <Parduss> If he starts mutating... I'm out of here...
14:01 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Bonus points if he pops up in full Pirate King regalia
14:02 [D] <Morpheus> If rum doesn't fix it apply more rum!
14:02 [D] <twisty> ... working on it
14:02 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Screenshotted for future blackmailing purposes
14:02 [D] <Satch> Meeting closed by unamimous vote.
14:03 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** 
14:03 [D] <alexjago> Ayes: 11 (Pip F, Miles, alexjago, Liam, mandrke, Parduss, twisty, Satch, JohnA, Morpheus, fred); Nays 1 (deadbeat); Abstain 3 (jedb, 8MA_JBH, FireABroadside)
14:03 [D] <alexjago> Meeting adjourned at 16:03
14:03 [D] <alexjago> **MEETING ADJOURNED**


##### Overnight chit-chat removed for brevity. #################################

################################################################################
##### Day 2 commences.                                                     #####
################################################################################

07:58 [D] <Miles> good morning everyone, im coming on now
08:00 [D] <Morpheus> Me neither, and I don't have way to shut down the light easier.
08:01 [D] <Morpheus> Limited bandwidth, audio was a bit choppy because of it.
08:04 < jedb> is audio meant to be muted right now?
08:05 [D] <Morpheus> audio to me is choppy
08:05 [D] <PP_Weekly> Perfect audio
08:05 < jedb> ah, it's back
08:06 [D] <Morpheus> but that is my internet connection, some  speakers good, some not
08:06 [D] <PP_Weekly> Stream audio is also good
08:06 [D] <alexjago> jedb: what was the last thing you heard before audio dropped?
08:06 [D] <SeaBee> audio seems good to me
08:07 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  PROCEDURAL MOTION: Move the remaining Policy and Position motions until after nominations in the agenda
08:07 [D] <Miles> 
08:07 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
08:07 [D] <Morpheus> aye
08:07 < jedb> alexjago: not sure, wasn't paying close attention
08:07 [D] <Miles> aye
08:07 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
08:07 < jedb> aye
08:07 [D] <Satch> aye
08:07 [D] <SeaBee> Aye
08:07 [D] <Parduss> Aye
08:07 [D] <JohnA> atd
08:07 [D] <mandrke> AYE
08:07 [D] <fred> aye
08:07 [D] <JohnA> aye
08:07 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
08:07 [D] <twisty> aye
08:07 [D] <alexjago> aye
08:08 [D] <Parduss> #mandrakesfault
08:10 [D] <Miles> close voting
08:10 [D] <Morpheus> hard to understand when 2 people or more talking at once!
08:10 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** unanimously
08:12 [D] <alexjago> 💬 Miles Whiticker - nomination speech
08:13 [D] <PP_Weekly> Screen is frozen,. Audio still good
08:15 [D] <Parduss> AFK
08:17 [D] <PP_Weekly> Screen unfrozen, audio still great. Optics degraded
08:18 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Hear Hear!
08:18 [D] <Morpheus> Many of our politicians are as you describe Miles. Well stated.
08:19 [D] <Satch> There's not much to see aside from our faces. So long as the audio stream is good, that's the main thing.
08:19 [D] <mandrke> hear!
08:19 [D] <PP_Weekly> Die Partei in Germany ran as a satirical party & they won a seat in parliament last year
08:19 [D] <Morpheus> What needs to be done to contest elections? We need someone with big pockets to support us. What about that Atlassian bloke?
08:20 [D] <Morpheus> He seems to have a good head on shoulders
08:20 [D] <mandrke> Fresh Sun Ripened Tomato Party?
08:20 [D] <Morpheus> How many more members needed to prevent deregistration?
08:20 [D] <Admiral William: YPNOR> 500 i think
08:20 [D] <PP_Weekly> Hawaii has The Shopping Party on the ballot. That's why I'm creating Pirate Party Hawaii
08:21 [D] <Satch> Sun dried tomatoes ftw! 😛
08:21 [D] <Morpheus> Green Tomoto Party. 500 more?
08:21 [D] <alexjago> @Morpheus realistically, we need another 300
08:21 [D] <alexjago> (to get to 550)
08:22 [D] <Morpheus> Do we have a poster for reasons for people to join our party?
08:22 [D] <mandrke> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Ripened_Warm_Tomato_Party
08:23 [D] <alexjago> @Morpheus a few and we can create more
08:23 [D] <PP_Weekly> Target the youth and disenfranchised voters who normally wouldn't vote .....use TikTok & Twitch. Gamers are a huge demographic
08:23 [D] <twisty> https://gallery.pirateparty.org.au/
08:24 [D] <PP_Weekly> > Do we have a poster for reasons for people to join our party?
08:24 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Morpheus posters are crucial. Billboards same.
08:24 [D] <alexjago> and https://abjago.net/ppau-graphics
08:24 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> news articals on local news papers could work as well.
08:25 [D] <Parduss> A twitch is something I’d suggest on the  international scale, more slots filled.
08:25 [D] <Morpheus> audio bad at present
08:26 [D] <Parduss> Anyway AFK for 5 more minutes.
08:26 [D] <PP_Weekly> Elections are always exhausting
08:27 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Maybe put in some sort of good recovery plan for volunteers after elections to better recover from them?
08:27 [D] <Miles> excellent, @International Pirate you can finally view and comment in this channel
08:28 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> > excellent, @International Pirate you can finally view and comment in this channel
08:28 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> @Miles Yeah, i was a  bit supiress that i could. wasn't able yesterday
08:28 [D] <Gave2Haze> will bro you pinged twice smh
08:29 [D] <PP_Weekly> I volunteered for Nader w/ Green Party Berkeley, Matt Gonzalez w/Green Party San Francisco, and Laura Wells w/Green Party California. It's always exhausting. It's not always about winning & losing but getting pirate party name recognition
08:29 [D] <JohnA> Yes, with the greens - beyond a certain point, they do seem to get machiavellian, but people are civilized till then.
08:32 [D] <Parduss> Finally back
08:32 [D] <Miles> @Admiral William: YPNO it was some weirdness with perms, they werent propogating down through the categories
08:33 [D] <Satch> BRB - 2 minutes. Breakfast pancakes just arrived. 🙂
08:33 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I hope you brought enough to share @Satch
08:33 [D] <JohnA> Could maintain registration, but not field the next election.
08:33 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Ah i see, well glad it's working now.
08:33 [D] <JohnA> ... or at least, try to ...
08:33 [D] <alexjago> @JohnA we would need to stand at least one candidate in 2022
08:34 [D] <PP_Weekly> Greens/EFA and Pirates are in a coalition w/Die Partei the satire party. They get alot done. Maybe form a coalition..
08:34 [D] <JohnA> Alex: I don't think you need to actually field candidates to maintain legal registration. There's a bit a of "why bother" element, but I don't think it is illegal.
08:35 [D] <Parduss> Yeah, I'm with alex's sentiment.
08:35 [D] <SeaBee> 😦 either my internet is trash or alex is cutting out a lot
08:35 [D] <alexjago> Nah, deregistration has "hasn't run in 4 years" as a trigger
08:36 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Sound is fine for me.
08:36 [D] <Morpheus> audio is dropping in and out
08:36 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> But i do have norwegian internet.
08:36 [D] <Morpheus> NBN here - NoBloodyNetwork!
08:37 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Yikes.
08:38 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Maybe get members to do a bit of low key marketing. i do that with my social media, Like on Steam the stea mgroup thats shown on my profile is pirate party and on anilist i got a badge on my profile saying "vote pirate party"
08:39 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Maybe get members to do a bit of low key marketing. i do that with my social media, Like on Steam the steam group thats shown on my profile is pirate party and on anilist i got a badge on my profile saying "vote pirate party" (edited)
08:40 [D] <Dr Liam> While we'll still have to run at least 1 candidate somewhere, endorsements of other candidates should be considered as an additional thing. If there was another Scott Ludlam running, endorsing them and saving the money that can then be spent on advertising for a candidate in another electorate or state would probably be desirable.
08:40 [D] <PP_Weekly> When SF Greens don't have a candidate they do endorsements at every level of govt . https://twitter.com/SFGreenParty/status/1284317131903889409?s=19
08:41 [D] <PP_Weekly> > Maybe get members to do a bit of low key marketing. i do that with my social media, Like on Steam the steam group thats shown on my profile is pirate party and on anilist i got a badge on my profile saying "vote pirate party"
08:41 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Jarl av Grenland great idea!
08:41 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> on my github and gitlab bio i mention my title as leader of the young pirates of Norway.
08:41 [D] <Miles> @MarkG hey are you around?
08:42 [D] <Miles> or @twisty
08:42 [D] <alexjago> or @BrandonS or @twisty
08:42 [D] <twisty> what?
08:42 [D] <twisty> how can I help
08:42 [D] <Parduss> Almost had another mutiny, led by the quartermaster.
08:42 [D] <PP_Weekly> > on my github and gitlab bio i mention my title as leader of the young pirates of Norway.
08:43 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Jarl av Grenland are you on Twitter ?
08:43 [D] <alexjago> We need @twisty @BrandonS or @MarkG to administer the final bit of the election
08:43 [D] <JohnA> People: as a  procedural resolution, perhaps we could appoint Miles and Alex as co-returning officers, so they could appoint each other.
08:43 [D] <JohnA> ... looks like twisty is around ...
08:43 [D] <twisty> I'm listening
08:44 [D] <PP_Weekly> Go Alex!!
08:44 [D] <JohnA> Twisty: if you can get on jit.si, you could read out the names of people appointed to positions. Or worst, case, type into the keyboard at your end.
08:44 [D] <Satch> I'll appoint you if you appoint me. A circular condundrum.
08:46 [D] <twisty> I can type
08:46 [D] <PP_Weekly> YouTube Stream video is degraded everything looks blurry. Audio is still good
08:47 [D] <JohnA> twisty: OK, we'll get Alex to initiative a procedural motion at the end of the election spiels, if he is cool with that.
08:47 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> > @Admiral William: YPNO are you on Twitter ?
08:47 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> @PP_Weekly I am, ill DM it too you.
08:48 [D] <mandrke> Streaming system is frozen
08:48 [D] <FireABroadside> Yep.
08:48 [D] <Morpheus> I agree that all efforts should be made to stay registered. We need to all get active and get new members.
08:49 [D] <twisty> no audio
08:49 [D] <mandrke> @alexjago I'm frozen
08:49 [D] <PP_Weekly> YT stream is losing audio now
08:49 [D] <PP_Weekly> Alex is unfrozen now
08:50 [D] <Parduss> Alex, why you no have multicore setup?
08:51 [D] <Dr Liam> https://privacy.org.au/policies/meta-principles/
08:51 [D] <PP_Weekly> Alex is frozen again
08:52 [D] <Satch> The reality is that one cannot hide something while also sharing it.
08:53 [D] <mandrke> My system is restarting
08:53 [D] <Parduss> Yeah, I think that's commonsense liam.
08:53 [D] <twisty> youtube stream frozen
08:54 < jedb> Satch: compartmentalising things helps though
08:55 [D] <SeaBee> did the stream just die?
08:55 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Yes. Working on it now
08:55 [D] <alexjago> Proc motion appointing Twisty as returning officer seems good
08:56 [D] <SeaBee> im back on jitsi
08:56 [D] <alexjago> (for the elections)
08:56 [D] <Miles> MOTION: break for 10 mins until stream returns
08:56 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
08:56 [D] <Miles> vote now
08:56 [D] <Morpheus> aye
08:56 [D] <Miles> aye
08:56 [D] <JohnA> aye
08:56 [D] <mandrke> aye
08:56 [D] <Satch> aye
08:56 [D] <SeaBee> Aye
08:56 [D] <Morpheus> aye
08:56 [D] <Parduss> Aye
08:56 [D] <alexjago> Aye
08:56 [D] <Parduss> No toilet break until you get our say so
08:56 < jedb> aye
08:57 [D] <twisty> aye
08:57 [D] <BrandonS> Aye
08:57 [D] <fred> aye
08:57 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
08:58 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
08:58 [D] <Miles> motion passes, we're now on break
08:58 [D] <Miles> i'll try and summarise the discussion that was lost when the stream froze
08:59 [D] <Parduss> Is 2 @mandrke 's too much, or too little?
08:59 [D] <SeaBee> dam, just donated a little a few days ago and it looks like the party might be closing down 😢
08:59 [D] <Parduss> Sea, not if I have any say in it.
08:59 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Me too @SeaBee but I would have just wasted it on Magic cards otherwise
08:59 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Ill personally come on my viking longship to prevent it.
09:00 [D] <SeaBee> well i hope we stay alive for as long as possible 🙃
09:00 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> > Me too @SeaBee but I would have just wasted it on Magic cards otherwise
09:00 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> @Pip Foweraker Got some of the sweet mtg crack.
09:00 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> > Me too @SeaBee but I would have just wasted it on Magic cards otherwise
09:00 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> @Pip Foweraker Got some of the sweet mtg crack to share? (edited)
09:00 [D] <SeaBee> dam, havent seen any MTG cards since high school XD
09:00 [D] <alexjago> * Alex wants to change the PPAU privacy policy
09:00 [D] <alexjago> * Miles raises previous work
09:00 [D] <alexjago> * Reference to https://privacy.org.au/policies/meta-principles/ 
09:00 [D] <alexjago> * Liam agrees that coordinators should be able to use the contact details of the people they coordinate
09:00 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @Admiral William: YPNO You can have my left over commons
09:00 [D] <PP_Weekly> I'm going to donate more as soon as I can.
09:02 [D] <BrandonS> I second Liam’s statement about coordinators having access. I’ve been banging on about that for close to a decade
09:02 [D] <PP_Weekly> > dam, just donated a little a few days ago and it looks like the party might be closing down 😢
09:02 [D] <PP_Weekly> @SeaBee not closing down. Restructuring. Political party Housekeeping, if you will💀
09:02 [D] <SeaBee> ahhh
09:02 [D] <SeaBee> ok
09:03 [D] <BrandonS> That restructuring will be the topic of much discussion today and later
09:03 [D] <PP_Weekly> It would help if PPAU had PP Brisbane, Melbourne, and PP Sydney active on Twitter, it would draw more members!!
09:03 [D] <BrandonS> I think everyone on the outgoing and potentially incoming NC has thoughts on it.
09:03 [D] <Parduss> NSW, the state of "we're too fucking big"
09:04 [D] <BrandonS> Oh, we know @PP_Weekly
09:04 [D] <Miles> its not a restructuring i'm proposing, its a changing of focus
09:04 [D] <Miles> a new focus that will minimise electoral campaigns in order to maximimise advocacy, outreach and member building
09:04 [D] <PP_Weekly> > its not a restructuring i'm proposing, its a changing of focus
09:04 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Sorokyne that sounds better. Change of focus
09:04 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> You could hook it up to my twitter account, but al lthe content would be in Norwegian XD
09:05 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Is a coffee that can be made in two minutes really worth drinking
09:05 [D] <BrandonS> Member building is definitely something we need to work on.
09:06 [D] <PP_Weekly> It's going to be international anyway. We could do subtitles in English as well
09:06 [D] <PP_Weekly> 
09:06 [D] <PP_Weekly> > You could hook it up to my twitter account, but al lthe content would be in Norwegian XD
09:06 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Jarl av Grenland
09:06 [D] <BrandonS> No, @Pip Foweraker
09:07 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> I am personally more of a tea guy, even a two minute tea aint worth it.
09:07 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @Admiral William: YPNO If you get into drinking tea Chinese style there are some raw Puer brews that you only steep for 10-20 seconds, but that's a little outside the mainstream
09:08 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Personally I like my tea thick enough the spoon stands up 🙂
09:08 [D] <Miles> its a stimulant, im not meant to enjoy it
09:08 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> I am in to tea drinking mostly drink chinese gunpowder tho, but been trying out new stuff. might be getting som korean and Thai tea as well.
09:08 [D] <alexjago> @Pip Foweraker if you're ever up in Brisbane try the Italian Hot Chocolate at La Dolce Vita in Milton then 😉
09:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> It will be an international weekly pirate party show something very similar to what's going on today. A Feed from YouTube that connects with Discord and IRC with content we can display on Twitch and I'll do the adverts on TikTok. 
09:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> 
09:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> 
09:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> > You could hook it up to my twitter account, but al lthe content would be in Norwegian XD
09:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Jarl av Grenland
09:09 [D] <BrandonS> Society tells us otherwise, @Miles 😉
09:09 [D] <BrandonS> I’d also recommend the peanut butter hot chocolate at Denim cafe in Southbank, Brisbane.
09:09 < jedb> it... is... alive...!
09:10 [D] <Parduss> I think an international online effort would work well, allowing it direct people to their local equivalent.
09:10 [D] <Satch> I drink Tea most mornings now. I used to drink coffee, but I ended up drinking too much and it didn't help with a good night's sleep.
09:10 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> once you go Gunpowder Satch, you never gonna go back XD
09:11 [D] <Miles> https://privacy.org.au/policies/meta-principles/
09:11 [D] <Satch> ^ typed as I take another sip of this iced coffee.
09:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> I've already got two powerhouse guests for our debut show. Pirate Party Catalonia has agreed to talk about the recent NSO hack, and I've got Amir Taaki (creator of the original Bitcoin protocol) coming on the show as qell
09:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> 
09:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> > It will be an international weekly pirate party show something very similar to what's going on today. A Feed from YouTube that connects with Discord and IRC with content we can display on Twitch and I'll do the adverts on TikTok. 
09:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> > 
09:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> > 
09:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> > @Jarl av Grenland
09:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> @PP_Weekly
09:12 [D] <Miles> @PP_Weekly if you can get me amir taaki willing to do a panel with us sometime next year that would be sweet 💀
09:13 [D] <BrandonS> @PP_Weekly I’ve been wanting to do a weekly YouTube Pirate Politics news show for ages, but have just never had the time
09:13 [D] <PP_Weekly> > @PP_Weekly if you can get me amir taaki willing to do a panel with us sometime next year that would be sweet 💀
09:13 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Sorokyne yes, no problem. Let me know when, and where. I will call him tonight after the Congress.
09:13 [D] <Miles> you can go speak on their show Brandon
09:13 [D] <Parduss> Will your beard take up the post of deputy?
09:14 [D] <BrandonS> Okay.
09:14 [D] <Morpheus> More caffiene in tea than coffee I thought.
09:14 [D] <BrandonS> Last time I did an interview I got blacklisted by China, but sure 😛
09:14 [D] <PP_Weekly> >
09:14 [D] <PP_Weekly> We are creating it right here right now. Welcome aboard. 🏴‍☠️💀
09:14 [D] <PP_Weekly>  @PP_Weekly I’ve been wanting to do a weekly YouTube Pirate Politics news show for ages, but have just never had the time
09:14 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Darcrider
09:14 [D] <PP_Weekly> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736753337604767794/unknown.png
09:14 [D] <BrandonS> Did we get any nominations for Deputy President?
09:15 [D] <Miles> me, brandon
09:15 < jedb> BrandonS: if you aren't getting blacklisted by China, you aren't trying :P
09:15 [D] <mandrke> techically Miles, but that role is currently empty
09:15 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> > Last time I did an interview I got blacklisted by China, but sure 😛
09:15 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> @BrandonS Oh, i want to get blacklisted by PROC. let me join an interview XD
09:15 [D] <PP_Weekly> You sound perfect then😂🏴‍☠️
09:15 [D] <PP_Weekly> > Last time I did an interview I got blacklisted by China, but sure 😛
09:15 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Darcrider
09:16 [D] <BrandonS> I forgot to get my nomination in. But if there are other candidates, I’m happy to stay as a councillor
09:16 [D] <Miles> there are 3 candidates already brandon
09:16 [D] <Miles> for councillor
09:16 [D] <alexjago> @BrandonS there are three councillor candidates but you could be deputy anything when we run the by-elections
09:16 [D] <Miles> yes the 3 deputy positions are all open
09:17 [D] <Miles> nominations have closed, however we could do a vote to suspend standing orders to allow your nomination
09:17 [D] <PP_Weekly> Amir Taaki 
09:17 [D] <PP_Weekly> https://youtu.be/YD5htYPcVqE
09:18 [D] <alexjago> We could proc motion to have a secondary nominations period after some policy discussion to allow for additional noms
09:20 < jedb> everything is fine
09:21 [D] <Parduss> IP is a vital issue, but it's not particularly sexy.
09:21 [D] <PP_Weekly> This was Pirate Party Russia's interview with Amir two years ago. We can do better on our new pirate party weekly show
09:21 [D] <PP_Weekly> 
09:21 [D] <PP_Weekly> https://youtu.be/KQgUeIPQBkQ
09:21 [D] <BrandonS> There are lots of vital, insect issues
09:21 [D] <PP_Weekly> > IP is a vital issue, but it's not particularly sexy.
09:21 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Parduss I find IP sexy..
09:21 [D] <BrandonS> Unsexy issues, rather
09:21 [D] <BrandonS> Insect issues I’ll leave to the experts.
09:22 [D] <BrandonS> But prison reform. We have a policy on that. Not a lot of parties do. But we did it cos it’s necessary and with the knowledge that straight up it’s not a vote winner.
09:23 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Gonnae make those prisons like they are here in Norway?
09:23 [D] <BrandonS> If only
09:23 [D] <BrandonS> Long term? Yes
09:23 [D] <BrandonS> Like, in 100 years after a lot of uphill social change and education?
09:23 [D] <PP_Weekly> > But prison reform. We have a policy on that. Not a lot of parties do. But we did it cos it’s necessary and with the knowledge that straight up it’s not a vote winner.
09:23 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Darcrider immigrant detention centers like Manus, seldom discussed in Australia or no?
09:24 [D] <BrandonS> How long have you got?
09:24 [D] <BrandonS> I could talk a crowd of 1000’s legs off on that topic then persuade them to go for a walk afterwards
09:24 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Lets say we will meet in 100 years and the see how far we got.
09:24 [D] <BrandonS> I like that plan
09:25 [D] <Miles> @PP_Weekly immigrant detention is a major issue in australia which comes and goes over the years, there is a huge ongoing protest in brisbane at the moment
09:25 < jedb> part of the problem is probably that the erosion of civil rights has become *normal*
09:25 [D] <Miles> they're literally blockading the hotel where the asylum seekers are being kept to prevent them being moved to a prison
09:25 [D] <PP_Weekly> > I could talk a crowd of 1000’s legs off on that topic then persuade them to go for a walk afterwards
09:25 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Darcrider our opening pirate weekly show will be amazing if we already have Amir, pirate party Catalonia , and you on manus
09:25 [D] <BrandonS> A city councilman got arrested for participating. It’s a major stink
09:25 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> But if of interest i could go looking for more details about how Norwegian prisons works through my university etc.
09:25 [D] <PP_Weekly> > they're literally blockading the hotel where the asylum seekers are being kept to prevent them being moved to a prison
09:25 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Sorokyne please send links. The topic is on mute in Hawaii atm
09:25 [D] <BrandonS> Please do.
09:26 [D] <PP_Weekly> Prison reform is always of interest
09:26 [D] <PP_Weekly> 
09:26 [D] <PP_Weekly> > But if of interest i could go looking for more details about how Norwegian prisons works through my university etc.
09:26 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Jarl av Grenland
09:26 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Alright, i'll see what i can dig up
09:27 [D] <8MA_JBH> I suppose I wonder is the cost of fielding candidates actually worth the supposed publiclity benefits. It's a pretty high opportunity cost, would be interested to hear it justified
09:28 [D] <Satch> Unless we're contesting seats in the Senate or parliament, nobody takes us seriously.
09:28 [D] <alexjago> Welcome @pet3rpan
09:28 [D] <Parduss> I would like to counter with, what is the cost of not fielding someone?
09:28 [D] <JohnA> 8MA_JBH : did you participate in the last election campaign?
09:29 [D] <8MA_JBH> No, I have been inactive for about 1-2 years. I am asking genuinely to hear what people think based on their experience
09:30 [D] <Morpheus> I have to go now to do some unscheduled chores. I hope to be back for afternoon discussions.
09:30 [D] <Parduss> I am glad to no longer be politically homeless as well.
09:30 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> See ya
09:30 [D] <PP_Weekly> > Unless we're contesting seats in the Senate or parliament, nobody takes us seriously.
09:30 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Satch not even grassroots politics on a local level?
09:31 [D] <pet3rpan> thanks! @alexjago
09:31 [D] <PP_Weekly> Keep in touch > See ya
09:31 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Jarl av Grenland
09:32 [D] <Miles> the financial cost of registering a single candidate varies slightly per state and election, but is in the area of $1000 to $2000
09:32 [D] <Miles> for a senate ticket we also want to field 2x candidates, which bumps it up to $4000 per state just for registration fees
09:32 [D] <8MA_JBH> Cheers for the numbers
09:33 [D] <Parduss> I would suggest we don't go down this rabbithole right now, it's a very polarising issue, which can end up being discussed for hours.
09:33 [D] <Miles> add into this a bare minimum spend of about $100 in flyers and another $100 in tshirts per campaign
09:33 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> the fact there is a registration fee for candidates is bonkers.
09:33 [D] <Miles> add in costs for things like transport, phone calls, food and misc other purchases when campaigning
09:33 [D] <alexjago> @Admiral William: YPNO it's techincally a deposit, you just have to do much better than we do to get it back
09:33 [D] <Miles> a large part of the cost will always fall on the individual
09:34 [D] <Parduss> Satire?
09:34 [D] <BrandonS> Those costs are mitigated at the state and local level, which is what we should explore at some point. But that requires registered state parties.
09:34 [D] <mandrke> The right-facing swastika appears commonly in Hinduism , Jainism and Sri Lankan Buddhism.
09:34 [D] <alexjago> @Miles I muted you because your keyboard is LOUD
09:34 [D] <Miles> 😠
09:34 [D] <pet3rpan> why ban when there's common sense?
09:34 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> > @Admiral William: YPNO it's techincally a deposit, you just have to do much better than we do to get it back
09:34 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> @alexjago Ah i see we have a lists based systm so our party just gives lists with candidates.
09:34 < jedb> COMMENT: if you start criminalising speech, it is very easy to end up in a position like New Zealand where the government plays right into a terrorist's hands and the general public is not allowed to know due to censorship
09:34 [D] <pet3rpan> social soft consensus is a much cheaper former of governance
09:35 < jedb> agreed, off topic
09:35 [D] <pet3rpan> vs. outright banning, which can be a sliperly slope
09:35 [D] <Parduss> And it tends to be more flexible and able to more even handed.
09:35 [D] <pet3rpan> correct
09:35 [D] <pet3rpan> being a dickhead is not illegal
09:35 [D] <pet3rpan> just generally frowned upon lol
09:35 [D] <Parduss> "There's no cure for being a cunt!"
09:36 [D] <pet3rpan> haha
09:36 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> You are correct Parduss
09:37 [D] <JohnA> Government has a monopoly in the use of coercive force and violence. There's a difference between when the government censors, makes something illegal, as compared to when groups / inviduals try to de-platform. I'm not comfortable calling that "censorship" - it seems to me that "censorship" needs to be backed up by that government monopoly on the nature of the law and the use of violence.
09:37 [D] <JohnA> ... the lawful use of violence, that is ...
09:38 [D] <Dr Liam> Agreed JohnA.
09:38 < jedb> JohnA: a literal mob uses the threat of violence to shut down speech and you're not comfortable calling that censorship?
09:38 [D] <BrandonS> Yes. The punching up vs punching down
09:39 [D] <Parduss> I see no more questions?
09:40 [D] <Pip Foweraker> We can't hear you Fred
09:40 [D] <twisty> no
09:40 [D] <Pip Foweraker> We do, his hand is waving, but no noise
09:40 [D] <twisty> @Parduss thanks
09:41 [D] <Parduss> Shall we come back to fred?
09:41 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Backup headphones! The man comes prepared
09:41 [D] <twisty> Fred?
09:42 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Oligarchy of the Motivated ❤️
09:42 [D] <Satch> The oligarchy of the motivated. Fine words. 😉
09:42 [D] <pet3rpan> haha
09:42 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Very nice
09:43 [D] <twisty> hi Phillip ... what's your @ here?
09:43 [D] <Parduss> <-
09:43 [D] <twisty> ty
09:45 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Dutch!
09:46 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> concpiracy: I am only here to steal ideas for pirateparty of Norway
09:46 [D] <Miles> damn i was going to say dutch
09:46 [D] <Pip Foweraker> You can have Austrian as a consolation guess @Miles
09:46 [D] <Miles> hmm i dunno if id go austrian
09:46 [D] <Miles> ohhhh hang on there was a german esque twang there
09:47 [D] <Miles> @Admiral William: YPNO you can have them
09:47 [D] <Miles> please steal our policies
09:47 [D] <Dr Liam> Belgian?
09:48 [D] <Parduss> Danish is my guess
09:48 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> wait we are using the wrong term Miles. I will pirate them 😉
09:48 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Scandinavian?
09:48 [D] <Parduss> William, that's cheating
09:48 [D] <Miles> yeah thats like 12 guesses in one
09:48 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> 3* in one
09:49 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> i mean lets just say Kalmar Union XD
09:49 [D] <twisty> a'hoy Fred what's your @ here?
09:49 [D] <Pip Foweraker> There is no right to not be offended so I say Fred should swear as much as possible
09:49 [D] <Satch> No offense taken. We're not a snowflake party. 😉
09:49 [D] <Parduss> Fred, making up words is the answer, because the people who want to understand you, won't purposefully misunderstand you.
09:49 [D] <twisty> all words are made up
09:50 [D] <Parduss> OK Poland, because that might have been a slip.
09:50 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> 🤔
09:50 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> How many pirates does it take to guess the country of one guy
09:51 [D] <JohnA> More of the stuff I've been up to, apart from the Hong Kong speech - my radio work, some podcasts at https://www.mixcloud.com/Johnorg/
09:51 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> > More of the stuff I've been up to, apart from the Hong Kong speech - my radio work, some podcasts at https://www.mixcloud.com/Johnorg/
09:51 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> @JohnA Ill have a look at it.
09:52 [D] <Parduss> Don't have to be the strongest, just need the motivation.
09:53 [D] <Parduss> I wouldn't say the debate is raging, but I mean, ask me to guess, I might guess
09:54 [D] <Satch> He's clearly from the northern antarctic. You can tell by the Santa Claus beard. 😛
09:54 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> hahaha
09:54 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> THats the marketing strat. "Santa is a pirate"
09:54 [D] <Pip Foweraker> TELL US FRED
09:54 [D] <Pip Foweraker> TELL US NOW
09:55 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Norway?
09:55 [D] <twisty> Fred can be the sweary one now
09:55 [D] <Pip Foweraker> That explains the perfectly neutral accent
09:55 [D] <JohnA> Aha ... ABBA?
09:55 [D] <Parduss> We demand a rendition of waterloo?
09:56 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Oh if you are from Jamtland or Bohuslen i'll ocunt you as Norwegian.
09:56 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Oh if you are from Jamtland or Bohuslen i'll count you as Norwegian. (edited)
09:56 < jedb> internet censorship is an ongoing issue here
09:58 [D] <Parduss> Might be that mic, but damn pip... you sound smooth.
09:59 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Found the guy that can answer phone calls for PPAU
09:59 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> quite the smood sound
10:00 [D] <Parduss> Yup, my thoughts.
10:00 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Pip How would you rate Maze's end in modern XD
10:00 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Pip How would you rate Maze's end deck in modern XD (edited)
10:01 [D] <Satch> I always thought it might be fun to host a D&D game for our pirates, but Magic the Gathering would do just fine. 😉
10:01 < jedb> ...third most evil bank...?
10:01 [D] <Parduss> I already GM a game, so not me.
10:02 [D] <Miles> i GM one, play in another
10:02 [D] <Miles> i could do a one shot now and again then
10:02 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Are international pirates welcome to join in a D&D game as well? XD
10:03 [D] <Satch> https://www.google.com/search?q=dice+roller
10:06 [D] <PP_Weekly> D&D and MTG...why not both
10:06 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> WHAT DO YOU MEAN!  I play maze's end full time 😅
10:06 [D] <PP_Weekly> > I always thought it might be fun to host a D&D game for our pirates, but Magic the Gathering would do just fine. 😉
10:06 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Satch  oh please let’s do both
10:06 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> The dekc is amazing
10:06 [D] <Parduss> <- To cheap to go MTG
10:07 [D] <Parduss> <- Too cheap to go MTG (edited)
10:07 [D] <Parduss> And Robo Rally...
10:07 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> The deck is amazing (edited)
10:08 [D] <PP_Weekly> > <- Too cheap to go MTG
10:08 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Parduss  MTG is too expensive for some people. D&D is the working persons MTG
10:08 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> never heard that explanation before @PP_Weekly XD
10:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> > never heard that explanation before @PP_Weekly XD
10:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Admiral William: YPNO  in Hawaii a Japanese person will stab you over MTG
10:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736767015804731412/image0.jpg
10:09 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> But yeah My Maze's end deck can't reach its full potential since i am too poor to buy the cards i need.
10:10 [D] <PP_Weekly> > @Admiral William: YPNO  in Hawaii a Japanese person will stab you over MTG
10:10 [D] <PP_Weekly> @PP_Weekly  MTG is very huge here & we say do D&D if u can’t afford MTG because of #FOMO
10:10 [D] <Parduss> Can we force pip to do our voiceovers?
10:10 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> 3 Amoulet of Vigor = 45US+
10:10 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Agree with parduss
10:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> > But yeah My Maze's end deck can't reach its full potential since i am too poor to buy the cards i need.
10:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Admiral William: YPNO  exactly... #FOMO is exspensive
10:11 [D] <twisty> lol ... am I still on the PDC?
10:12 [D] <alexjago> @twisty the PDC is lapsed right now, we will re-constitute
10:13 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Platform#Merger_of_tax_and_welfare_systems.2C_and_establishment_of_a_basic_income
10:14 [D] <Parduss> If it's questions related to housing affordability, what would be your opinion on Land Value Tax and it's ability to drive down land prices? (If this is the time to ask this)
10:16 [D] <twisty> .fuck, cows in the orchard ... bbs
10:17 [D] <Parduss> Nice answer.
10:18 [D] <JohnA> twisty - good luck with the cows - here's some strange ones :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FavUpD_IjVY
10:18 [D] <Parduss> cyriak is awesome
10:18 [D] <Parduss> Unions, better than the alternative.
10:19 [D] <Satch> Furry cow
10:19 [D] <Satch> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736769709546143874/53733819191ddbe4e2b3439196fe74c0.png
10:20 [D] <JohnA> Interesting perspective from Victoria - I think builders have "gone willd" in NSW.
10:22 < jedb> Paris is exactly like that if I remember right, medium density everywhere
10:22 [D] <Parduss> Medium density is good, high density is... well melbourne right now...
10:22 [D] <Miles> https://nightingalehousing.org/
10:23 < jedb> Parduss: inner city Melbourne is still covered in one and two storey buildings last I checked, not high density at all outside the CBD core area
10:24 [D] <Parduss> I do like ideas to break up ghettos.
10:25 [D] <JohnA> Note - lunch from 12:30
10:25 [D] <Pip Foweraker> > Nice answer.
10:25 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @Parduss Thanks! 🙂
10:26 [D] <Pip Foweraker> > @Parduss  MTG is too expensive for some people. D&D is the working persons MTG
10:26 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @PP_Weekly I was lucky to get in at the start, I bought my Black Lotus for $180
10:30 [D] <JohnA> Liam - would be good to get you on my radio show, on the digital liberties, consumer privacy etc ( not 18C!).
10:30 [D] <Pip Foweraker> 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
10:32 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> > @PP_Weekly I was lucky to get in at the start, I bought my Black Lotus for $180
10:32 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> @Pip Foweraker #stonks
10:32 < jedb> a decade is unlikely
10:32 [D] <mandrke> 1/2 hour extension?
10:33 [D] <Parduss> I too am big on social justice, but there's a reason lady justice wears a blindfold.
10:33 < jedb> I have a question for Liam at some point
10:34 [D] <Parduss> We get it Liam, you're old and you're nerdy.
10:34 < jedb> do we have time for a question before lunch, or should that wait till afterwards?
10:34 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> WoW
10:34  * jedb looks at the clock
10:34 [D] <Pip Foweraker> A bunch of nerdy celebrities in here 🙂
10:34 < jedb> probably not, I guess
10:35 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Thats some tasty news we can use for marketing.
10:35 [D] <Dr Liam> Oh yes, I forgot my WoW experience. I ran the largest Horde guild on the Emerald Dream US RP-PVP server back in the Wrath of the Lich King days.
10:35 [D] <Dr Liam> The Nyx
10:35 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Seems like you have your marketing cut out for you Miles.
10:35 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: 5 minute break
10:35 [D] <Miles> 
10:35 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
10:35 [D] <Miles> aye
10:35 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
10:35 [D] <JohnA> aye
10:35 [D] <Satch> aye
10:36 < jedb> abstain
10:36 [D] <Parduss> Aye
10:36 [D] <mandrke> aye
10:36 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
10:36 [D] <fred> aye
10:36 [D] <alexjago> Aye
10:36 [D] <Parduss> @mandrke don't make me steal those cards.
10:37 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> I think its fair to say that PPAU must have the most geek celebrities and geek credit among any party in Australia.
10:37 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> I think its fair to say that PPAU must have the most geek celebrities and geek cred among any party in Australia. (edited)
10:37 [D] <Miles> close voting
10:37 [D] <Parduss> I would say, per capita at least.
10:39 [D] <Parduss> It was a great show
10:39 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> That was a quick reply Liam XD
10:40 [D] <Admiral William: YPNO> Dose Bulbapedia have ads? YES!
10:41 [D] <Parduss> Do we ship Miles and Alex?
10:42 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> I mean why not?
10:42 [D] <Parduss> I mean, it's fanfic...
10:42 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> Yeah shipping from down under is expensive
10:43 [D] <Parduss> Shit's gotten real weird.
10:43 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> To much geek cred got reveled?
10:43 [D] <alexjago> > Do we ship Miles and Alex?
10:43 [D] <alexjago> @Parduss no
10:43 [D] <Satch> Postage within Australia is ridiculous. It's cheaper to have a package shipped from Hong Kong than it is to send a similar package interstate.
10:43 [D] <Parduss> The subjects do not get a vote on this.
10:43 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> Is that legal?
10:45 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: hear the last nominations before lunch (voting nay will be to hold lunch now and the nominations after lunch)
10:45 [D] <Miles> 
10:45 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
10:45 [D] <Miles> hold voting
10:45 [D] <Miles> ok place your votes
10:45 [D] <Miles> aye
10:45 [D] <Satch> abstain
10:45 [D] <mandrke> aye
10:45 [D] <Pip Foweraker> AYye
10:45 < jedb> abstain
10:45 [D] <alexjago> aye
10:45 [D] <Parduss> Aye
10:46 [D] <fred> aye
10:46 [D] <JohnA> aye
10:46 [D] <BrandonS> Aye
10:46 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
10:49 [D] <Parduss> Better question, what switches do you use miles?
10:49 [D] <alexjago> OK, that's been three minutes
10:49 [D] <Miles> close voting
10:49 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: Suspend section 2 (1) of the standing orders such that nominations for electable positions may be made on the floor of congress. Any such floor nominations may be heard at the end of policy motions on Sunday
10:49 [D] <Miles> 
10:49 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
10:49 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/National_Congress_Standing_Orders#Nominations
10:49 [D] <Satch> aye
10:49 [D] <JohnA> aye
10:49 < jedb> abstain
10:49 [D] <Parduss> Aye
10:49 [D] <Miles> aye
10:50 [D] <mandrke> aye
10:50 [D] <alexjago> Aye
10:50 [D] <fred> aye
10:50 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
10:50 [D] <Miles> @Parduss im using mechanical switches
10:50 [D] <Miles> its a steelseries kb
10:50 [D] <Miles> apex 300
10:50 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
10:51 [D] <Parduss> I realise, it's more a nerdy ask of switch colour.
10:51 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
10:51 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> Don't remember what switches they use. Dont they use in house or am i completly off?
10:51 [D] <Miles> close voting
10:51 < jedb> this is a bit of a mess
10:53 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> also i can say i am actually board member of a table top organization that hosts table top events where people can come and play everything from MTG, board games , D&D and more. That*s the only geek cred i have, also that i run the Maze's end deck.
10:54 [D] <Parduss> #blamemandrake
10:54 [D] <JohnA> Mandrake, good on you for stepping up.
10:54 < jedb> why was there never any call for questions for Liam?
10:55 [D] <JohnA> During lunch, I'll be moving to a Parramatta site.
10:55 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: adjourn for lunch
10:55 [D] <Miles> 
10:55 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
10:55 [D] <JohnA> aye
10:55 [D] <Satch> aye
10:55 [D] <alexjago> Aye
10:55 [D] <Miles> aye
10:55 < jedb> aye
10:55 [D] <fred> aye
10:55 [D] <Parduss> Aye
10:56 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
10:56 [D] <Satch> 1 hour lunch break.
10:56 [D] <Satch> 45 minutes maybe (Alex)
10:56 [D] <Dr Liam> aye
10:56 < jedb> COMMENT: technically the motion to adjourn did not specify the length of lunch
10:56 [D] <mandrke> aye
10:57 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
10:58 [D] <Miles> close voting
10:58 [D] <Miles> we're now on lunch returning at 2pm

##### Lunch chit-chat removed for brevity. ####################################

12:11 [D] <alexjago> **RESUMING FROM LUNCH**
12:12 [D] <Morpheus> sound is terrible
12:12 [D] <twisty> aye
12:12 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> sound is fine on my end, aussie wifi being not helpful again?
12:12 [D] <twisty> Can I do it as a block or must it be individual
12:13 [D] <twisty> ?
12:13 [D] <alexjago> @twisty individual please
12:13 [D] <twisty> bugga ... just a minute
12:15 [D] <twisty> @Miles first
12:15 [D] <twisty> Miles Whiticker has nominated for this President. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
12:16 [D] <twisty> @alexjago
12:16 [D] <twisty> Alex Jago has nominated for this Secretary. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
12:16  * [D] <Pip Foweraker> Authority is not given to you to deny the Return of the King
12:16 [D] <alexjago> @twisty I accept
12:17 [D] <twisty> @JohnA
12:17 [D] <Satch> One ring to rule them all,
12:17 [D] <Satch>    one ring to find them,
12:17 [D] <Satch> One ring to bring them all
12:18 [D] <Satch>    and in the darkness bind them.
12:18 [D] <twisty> John August has nominated for Treasurer. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
12:18 [D] <JohnA> I accept
12:18 [D] <twisty> @fred
12:19 [D] <twisty> Fredrik 'Fred' Gerner has nominated for Councillor. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
12:19 [D] <fred> @twisty yep, i accept
12:20 [D] <twisty> @Phil?
12:20 [D] <twisty> Phillip Richards has nominated for Councillor. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
12:20 [D] <alexjago> @Parduss is Phillip
12:20 [D] <twisty> ... gawd
12:20 [D] <twisty> interwebs
12:21 [D] <twisty> Dave
12:21 [D] <twisty> David Kennedy has nominated for Councillor. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
12:21 [D] <mandrke> @Parduss
12:22 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> "The keyboard typing cant hurt you"
12:22 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> Keyboard typing:
12:22 [D] <twisty> PDO & DRC?
12:22 [D] <mandrke> David and Pardus accept
12:22 [D] <alexjago> PDO nominee is @Pip Foweraker
12:22 [D] <twisty> @Pip Foweraker
12:22 [D] <Parduss> Sorry, was distracted
12:22 [D] <twisty> Pip Foweraker has nominated for Policy Development Officer. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
12:23 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I accept. Thank you.
12:23 [D] <alexjago> @mandrke and @Dr Liam for DRC
12:24 [D] <twisty> Dr Liam Pomfret has nominated for Dispute Resolution Committee Member. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
12:24 [D] <Satch> Liam accepts DRC position.
12:24 [D] <twisty> wait
12:24 [D] <twisty> Bryn Busai has nominated for Dispute Resolution Committee Member. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
12:24 [D] <twisty> go
12:25 [D] <Dr Liam> In case it didn't come across on the stream (was wrestling with my mic), I accept.
12:25 [D] <mandrke> I most humbly accept
12:26 [D] <Satch> Bryn accepts position on DRC.
12:26 [D] <alexjago> 👏
12:26 [D] <twisty> As RO I congratulate you all. Have at it.
12:26 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Good work all 🙂
12:26 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> Congrats to the newly elected, that didnt pull a coup thie year.
12:26 [D] <twisty> already drinking
12:27 [D] <Satch> @twisty As is tradition. 😉
12:27 [D] <alexjago> And remember, all three Deputy roles are vacant; still accepting nominations for those until we are done with policy
12:27 < jedb> ...helmet law for bicycles is anti-cycling and anti-evidence nonsense, y'know...
12:27 [D] <Satch> Any new nominations are welcome.
12:28 [D] <PP_Weekly> What are the three deputy roles?
12:29 [D] <Parduss> I believe Dep Pres, Dep Sec, Dep Treasurer.
12:29 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Treasurer, Secretary, President @PP_Weekly
12:29 [D] <alexjago> Note that you need to be a Full Member
12:29 [D] <PP_Weekly> Just curious
12:29 [D] <Satch> I shot the sheriff, but I didn't kill the deputy.
12:30 [D] <Morpheus> Congratulations to all newly/re-elected officials.
12:30 [D] <twisty> yep. do the easy stuff first
12:30 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Welcome also to John's offsider! Always nice to have an audience to our deliberations 🙂
12:30 [D] <Morpheus> audio cutting in and out
12:30 [D] <Miles> @BrandonS now is the time to decide whether you want to nominate for a deputy role
12:31 [D] <Miles> we have plenty of new faces this year so its not desperate dont worry!
12:31 [D] <Parduss> Honestly, I remember the CES, and they acctually did a better job, often helping people getting trained, not just pushing them into interviewing for jobs they will never get.
12:33 [D] <Morpheus> Current job providers, many do not want to get unemployed jobs as they miss out on funding.
12:33 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Agreed. Lots of perverse incentives.
12:33 [D] <Parduss> (Keep in mind that was thru the eyes of a child, so grain of salt)
12:33 < jedb> I have never found a job provider that actually tried to assist me finding a job
12:34 [D] <Morpheus> Gson has had big dramas with them lately.
12:35 [D] <BrandonS> Apologies
12:35 [D] <BrandonS> I would like to nominate for Deputy President
12:35 [D] <Morpheus> 5 items to be discussed
12:36 [D] <Morpheus> my youtube is doing the normal thing and buffering, cutting out audio
12:36 [D] <BrandonS> However as it is late, and other items are to be discussed, it can go to by-election
12:37 [D] <alexjago> @BrandonS we can make it happen
12:37 [D] <Miles> ok your call. we have suspended standing orders so it is fine to do it now
12:37 [D] <Satch> Probably no need @BrandonS as the positions aren't being contested.
12:37 [D] <BrandonS> Okay then
12:38 [D] <PP_Weekly> > I would like to nominate for Deputy President
12:38 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Darcrider yay!!
12:41 [D] <JohnA> MOTION: adopt PS-1
12:41 [D] <Miles> place your votes
12:41 [D] <Miles> aye
12:41 [D] <twisty> aye
12:41 < jedb> aye
12:41 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
12:41 [D] <mandrke> aye
12:41 [D] <Parduss> Aye
12:41 [D] <alexjago> Aye
12:41 [D] <fred> aye
12:41 [D] <Dr Liam> aye
12:41 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
12:41 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
12:41 [D] <Satch> aye
12:41 [D] <BrandonS> Aye
12:41 [D] <Parduss> Drama... in politics...
12:42 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> unheard of right?
12:42 [D] <alexjago> @8MA_JBH ?
12:43 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
12:43 [D] <Morpheus> aye
12:43 [D] <Morpheus> link for jitsi again please
12:44 [D] <alexjago> (PM'd)
12:44 [D] <mandrke> https://meet.jit.si/PiratePartyAustraliaCongress2020
12:44 [D] <Miles> close voting
12:44 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** unanimously; PS-1 proceeds
12:45 [D] <Morpheus> thanks
12:45 [D] <twisty> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2020/Motions#PM-4:_Disaster_Relief_Fund_.28Climate_Change.29
12:46 [D] <Deadbeat> It's a bit premature to predicting an economic depression. We aren't even technically in a recession until the end of the quarter.
12:47 [D] <Miles> havent we been in a recession for the past 1 or 2 fys?
12:47 [D] <Parduss> I think K.I.S.S
12:47 [D] <twisty> what @Pip Foweraker said. remove the 2nd sentence. less is more
12:47 [D] <Parduss> So removing that line is good
12:47 [D] <Satch> Yes, we've been in recession for the past 2 years, but our right wing media only recognised that a few months ago.
12:48 [D] <Morpheus> where it says "particularly farmers" would it be better to say "land owners"? I am a land owner caring for 600 acres of native forest and get no assistance at all
12:48 [D] <Deadbeat> There's been negative growth in the last quarter so far. Next quarter is predicted to be down also of course.
12:48 [D] <Morpheus> No audio for me, internet buffering is killing it.
12:49 [D] <alexjago> @Morpheus we're considering an amendment to PM-4 to remove the second sentence.
12:49 [D] <Satch> Don't blame it on the sunshine. Don't blame it on the moonlight. Just blame it on the COVID-19.
12:49 [D] <twisty> @Morpheus ... carbon farmer
12:50 [D] <Parduss> I just can't, I just can't, I just can't wear a mask.
12:50 [D] <Morpheus> @twisty as the forest already exists and not large, haven't been able to get any shekels
12:50 [D] <Deadbeat> What is the source of the figures that claim recession over the last two years?
12:51 [D] <twisty> @Morpheus ... firewood
12:51 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Motion: That PM-4 be amended to remove the second sentence of the text
12:51 [D] <maus> > [I] <jedb> I have never found a job provider that actually tried to assist me finding a job
12:51 [D] <maus> neither
12:52 [D] <Miles> place your votes
12:52 [D] <Miles> nay
12:52 [D] <twisty> aye
12:52 [D] <Satch> aye
12:52 [D] <Parduss> Aye
12:52 [D] <Morpheus> aye
12:52 [D] <alexjago> Aye
12:52 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
12:52 [D] <mandrke> aye
12:52 [D] <JohnA> Aye
12:52 [D] <fred> aye
12:52 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
12:52 [D] <Dr Liam> aye
12:52 < jedb> aye
12:52 [D] <FireABroadside> aye
12:53 [D] <mandrke> changed my mind... nay
12:54 [D] <Parduss> Same as Alex.
12:54 [D] <BrandonS> Aye
12:55 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
12:55 [D] <alexjago> **MOTION CARRIED** Ayes: 14 (twisty, Satch, Parduss, alexjago, Morpheus, Pip, JohnA, fred, Deadbeat, Dr Liam, jedb, FireABroadside, BrandonS, 8MA_JBH); Nays 2 (Miles, mandrke);
12:55 [D] <Miles> close vote
12:56 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: Adopt PM4 as amended
12:56 [D] <Miles> 
12:56 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
12:56 [D] <Miles> put your votes now
12:56 [D] <Miles> aye
12:56 [D] <Satch> aye
12:56 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
12:56 [D] <Dr Liam> aye
12:56 [D] <Parduss> Aye
12:56 [D] <mandrke> aye
12:56 [D] <fred> aye
12:56 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
12:56 [D] <alexjago> Aye
12:56 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
12:56 [D] <JohnA> Aya
12:56 < jedb> aye
12:56 [D] <JohnA> Aye
12:56 [D] <Satch> brb - the 10yo nephew is screaming in the kitchen..
12:57 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
12:57 [D] <Morpheus> aye
12:58 [D] <twisty> aye
12:58 < jedb> alexjago: PS-2 is definitely going to be a big timesink
12:58 < jedb> partly because we shouldn't even be considering it, partly because it's complete nonsense
12:59 [D] <JohnA> Jedb - need to accept process.
13:00 [D] <alexjago> **MOTION CARRIED** unanimously
13:00 < jedb> JohnA: it gets considering due to a constitutional oversight and it contradicts major points of currently adopted policy, but we'll get into that in detail later
13:02 [D] <Pip Foweraker> BRB bio break - 3 mins
13:02 [D] <Satch> He's watching Terminator 2.
13:02 < jedb> COMMENT: policy sections that are only a few lines are not unheard of in a lot of other parties, for whatever that's worth
13:03 [D] <twisty> a job for the PDO ...
13:03 < jedb> it was in response to that remark about having a policy that was only a couple of lines
13:03 [D] <alexjago> MOTION: amend PM-6A and PM-6B to protect the CES parts of the JG policy. 
13:03 [D] <alexjago> Put by AlexJ, accepted by JohnA
13:05 [D] <alexjago> Updated at https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2020/Motions#Policy_and_Platform_Amendment_Motions_2
13:07 [D] <Morpheus> @jedb many parties only have bullet point list of policies with very little detail and no rationale explaining why.
13:08 < jedb> Morpheus: even so, I've seen cases with a page or more for one policy and only one or two lines for another policy
13:09 [D] <8MA_JBH> Seems fair enough John, there is a lot of info out there on these things. It's a question of whether it's worth repurposing existing material, but I suppose it doesn't need to be hosted on the PPAU per se
13:09 [D] <Parduss> He needs to let people well and truly forget about the bushfires.
13:11 [D] <Morpheus> If referring to scumo, we need to keep reminding him and everyone else about the fires and the missing billions in support.
13:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> "The cost of living is the amount of money needed to sustain a certain standard of living by affording basic expenses such as housing, food, taxes, and healthcare. The cost of living is often used to compare how expensive it is to live in one city versus another. The cost of living is tied to wages." Jun 30, 2020
13:11 [D] <Parduss> Poverty traps are a serious issue, but few are interested in addressing them directly.
13:12 [D] <Morpheus> I like the definition of a living wage as defined back a long time ago in the Harvestor Case.
13:12 < jedb> COMMENT: we should remember that UBI is essentially an optimised welfare system similar to what we have now except with all the stigma, poverty traps, and forced labour removed
13:12 [D] <PP_Weekly> People already receiving welfare and disability payments receive a cost of living increase every year.
13:12 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I see being paid to sit at home and do nothing as a good thing and something we should aim for for more of society 🙂
13:12 [D] <8MA_JBH> Poverty traps are less of an issue when there is mass unemployment and few jobs. Doesn't matter whether people want to work more or not if there is no work
13:13 [D] <Morpheus> We should be doing more of nothing, creating art/music caring for each other and the environment
13:13 [D] <JohnA> Motion: adopt pm-6a
13:13 [D] <JohnA> Aye
13:13 [D] <twisty> aye
13:13 [D] <Morpheus> aye
13:13 [D] <Miles> nay
13:13 [D] <Deadbeat> Nay
13:13 < jedb> abstain
13:13 [D] <8MA_JBH> Nay
13:13 [D] <fred> aye
13:14 [D] <alexjago> Nay
13:14 [D] <Parduss> Aye
13:14 [D] <Satch> aye
13:14 [D] <FireABroadside> nay
13:14 [D] <mandrke> Abstain
13:15 [D] <PP_Weekly> > I see being paid to sit at home and do nothing as a good thing and something we should aim for for more of society 🙂
13:15 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Fumblefungus :tapebones: artistic types and people who want to work from home or start their own business feel more of an incentive to be productive w/UBI as opposed to the do nothing types , studies show.
13:15 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Nay
13:16 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
13:17 < jedb> at this rate 6b will probably pass, I'm guessing
13:18 [D] <Miles> close voting
13:18 [D] <Miles> **Ayes (7)** JohnA, twisty, morpheus, Fred, Parduss, Satch, DrLiam **Nays (6)** Miles, Deadbeat, Jessie, AlexJago, FireABroadside, PipFoweraker **Abstentions (2)** jedb, Mandrke
13:19 < jedb> that's 7/15, right?
13:20 [D] <Satch> If you hear a 10yo boy screaming in the background, that's just my parnters nephew.
13:20 [D] <Satch> partner's*
13:20 [D] <twisty> this is fun
13:22 [D] <Morpheus> @Satch Can't hear a anything here! No audio, NBN doing its buffering thing.
13:22 [D] <Satch> I have fibre to the bedroom. 😉
13:23 < jedb> QUESTION: would the simple vs absolute majority be best put to a vote? (just so long as it doesn't split so finely again...)
13:25 [D] <twisty> abstain shouldn't count
13:27 [D] <twisty> I never understood "abstain" ... what's the point
13:27 [D] <twisty> just don't vote
13:28 [D] <twisty> I did that earier
13:28 [D] <Morpheus> abstain to me is the same as an invalid vote or fence sitting.
13:28 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @twisty it's a hold over from environments where it's useful to have a 'soft no' signal. In some Parliaments enough abstains means 'Go away and try again' as opposed to 'Nope, never going to happen'
13:28 [D] <Satch> It means you've cast your vote, but neutral.
13:28 [D] <Pip Foweraker> "I'm not keen enough on seeing this succeed to vote for it in the current form, but neither do I want to signal to actively block it'
13:29 [D] <Satch> If you don't feel strongly either way, it's appropriate to submit an abstain vote.
13:29 [D] <Morpheus> @Pip Foweraker put a motion to that effect then
13:30 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @Morpheus sorry, I was giving an example of abstaining reasoning, not outlining my own position 🙂
13:30 [D] <Morpheus> OK
13:30 [D] <Miles> an abstention can also be used to indicate that the voter considers themselves biased and thus cannot fairly vote on the matter
13:31 [D] <twisty> so, don't vote
13:31 [D] <Satch> If you're not sure, abstain. 😉
13:31 [D] <Pip Foweraker> @twisty Not voting is option D, abstaining is option C 🙂
13:31 [D] <Morpheus> we be going around in circles here
13:32 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Getting the basics right when we have 20 people makes it smoother to run when we have 3000
13:32 [D] <8MA_JBH> Irony would be if there was a vote of no confidence we would have to determine whether it passed by simple or absolute majority
13:32 [D] <Morpheus> To me abstain means, I accept will of the majority, as I do not have an opinion either way
13:32 [D] <Pip Foweraker> So I am glad we're getting the nuts and bolts sorted with a reasonable amount of people in the room
13:32 < jedb> no no, democracy dying to thunderous applause comes later...
13:33 [D] <Satch> The premise of Star Wars was basically Pirates in Space.
13:33 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  PROCEDURAL MOTION: permanently amend the congress standing orders with immediate effect such that the term "A majority vote of those present" be replaced with "An absolute majority vote"
13:33 [D] <Miles> 
13:33 [D] <Miles> (dont vote)
13:33 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  PROCEDURAL MOTION: permanently amend the congress standing orders with immediate effect such that the term "A majority vote of those present" be replaced with "An absolute majority vote"
13:33 [D] <Miles> 
13:33 [D] <Miles> (dont vote yet) (edited)
13:34 [D] <Morpheus> Nil grok the difference, please explain as no audio here
13:34 [D] <Miles> rationale: under the constitution, the definition of "absolute majority" includes "those who have a right to vote" which for congress motions requires that they be a full member, in attendance, and informed the secretary of their attendance
13:34 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  PROCEDURAL MOTION: permanently amend the congress standing orders with immediate effect such that the term "A majority vote of those present" be replaced with "An absolute majority vote" as defined in the constitution
13:34 [D] <Miles> 
13:34 [D] <Miles> (dont vote yet) (edited)
13:34 [D] <alexjago> @Morpheus this would mean abstentions mean "no"
13:35 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Currently abstaining = your vote isn't counted, proposed change = abstaining counts as a 'no' when counting for 'did you make half plus one to pass'
13:35 [D] <Morpheus> thank you for clarifying
13:35 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> "I am Pirate Party Australia"
13:35 [D] <twisty> make me
13:36 [D] <twisty> go @alexjago
13:36 [D] <Deadbeat> That will mean that every motion will lose.
13:36 [D] <twisty> yep
13:36 [D] <twisty> yep
13:36 [D] <Satch> It's a silly motion IMHO.
13:36 [D] <twisty> yep
13:36 [D] <alexjago> ARGUMENT AGAINST: this requires the Secretary to keep track of who is AFK
13:37 [D] <Satch> Agreed Alex.
13:37 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> Miles: I am the congress
13:37 [D] <twisty> I'm with @alexjago
13:37 < jedb> it would be simpler to just consider online non-voting to not be present
13:38 [D] <alexjago> jedb: yes, at a minimum
13:38 [D] <8MA_JBH> Just curious, doesn't this stuff go to be voted on by members via email anyway? I seem to recall that happened 2 years ago when I first motioned to have the policy to be created. In which case I'm unsure of what the significance is of whether a motion passes or not in the Congress itself
13:39 [D] <Dr Liam> Agreed. Radio silence means not present in the room.
13:39 [D] <Dr Liam> Agreed. Radio silence for online participants means not present in the room. (edited)
13:39 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  PROCEDURAL MOTION: Permanently amend the congress standing orders with immediate effect such that the term "A majority vote of those present" be replaced with "A simple majority vote" as defined by the constitution. 
13:39 [D] <Miles> 
13:39 [D] <Miles> Rationale: under the constitution, the definition of "simple majority" matches most closely with standard practice in this and prior Congresses
13:39 [D] <Miles> (dont vote yet)
13:39 < jedb> 8MA_JBH: if it doesn't pass in congress then it doesn't go to members
13:39 [D] <Miles> place your votes
13:39 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
13:39 [D] <Miles> abstain
13:39 [D] <Satch> aye
13:40 [D] <alexjago> abstain
13:40 < jedb> aye
13:40 [D] <fred> aye
13:40 [D] <Parduss> asbtain
13:40 [D] <mandrke> aye
13:40 [D] <Deadbeat> Abstain
13:40 [D] <twisty> lol
13:40 [D] <8MA_JBH> Abstain
13:40 [D] <alexjago> oh ffs
13:40 [D] <alexjago> 
13:40 [D] <alexjago> AYE
13:40 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
13:40 [D] <Miles> change my vote to aye
13:40 [D] <twisty> nay
13:40 [D] <Morpheus> aye
13:40 < jedb> kek
13:40 [D] <BrandonS> Aye
13:40 [D] <Dr Liam> Abstain because I'll need to be the one adjudicating issues if there are any
13:41 [D] <8MA_JBH> Oh right nothing will work with abstain
13:41 [D] <Satch> Change my mind
13:41 [D] <Satch> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736820402218729523/flat1000x1000075f.png
13:41 [D] <8MA_JBH> In that case ayw
13:41 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
13:41 [D] <Miles> close voting
13:42 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> How many vote changes are going on?
13:43 [D] <twisty> lol ... more rum
13:43 [D] <8MA_JBH> I vote aye on the presumption that Congress will break down and become inoperable if we cannot resolve this. Also fyi my stream is down atm
13:43 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  PROCEDURAL MOTION: Set aside the results of the vote to adopt PM-6A due to the changes in standing orders affecting voting procedure (dont vote yet)
13:43 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> take a sip for me @twisty
13:44 < jedb> QUESTION: with the standing orders amended, the chair's decision on how to interpret the vote for PM-6A is now consistent with standing orders, right?
13:45 [D] <alexjago> **COUNT** for the Standing Orders vote: 
13:45 [D] <alexjago> Ayes 9 (Pip, Satch, fred, jedb, mandrke, 8MA_JBH, FireABroadside, Morpheus, BrandonS); Nays 1 (twisty); Abstain 3 (Deadbeat, Parduss, Dr Liam)
13:46 [D] <Satch> MOTION: 6B Replace references to 'Bitcoin' with 'Digital currency'.
13:46 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  PROCEDURAL MOTION: Set aside the results of the vote to adopt PM-6A due to the changes in standing orders affecting voting procedure (dont vote yet)
13:46 [D] <Miles> place your votes now
13:46 [D] <Miles> aye
13:46 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
13:46 [D] <Morpheus> aye
13:46 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
13:46 [D] <JohnA> Aye
13:46 [D] <alexjago> Aye
13:46 [D] <Satch> abstain
13:46 < jedb> nay
13:46 [D] <mandrke> aye
13:46 [D] <twisty> aye
13:46 [D] <FireABroadside> abstain
13:46 [D] <fred> aye
13:46 [D] <Dr Liam> Abstain again because I'll need to be the one adjudicating issues if there are any
13:46 [D] <8MA_JBH> Abstain
13:47 [D] <twisty> hehehe
13:48 [D] <Miles> close voting
13:48 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: Vote to adopt PM-6A
13:48 [D] <Miles> place your votes
13:48 [D] <Miles> aye
13:48 [D] <Deadbeat> Nay
13:48 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Nay
13:48 [D] <fred> aye
13:48 [D] <Miles> change my vote to nay
13:48 [D] <FireABroadside> Nay
13:48 [D] <Satch> abstain
13:48 < jedb> abstain
13:48 [D] <Morpheus> nay
13:48 [D] <Parduss> Aye
13:48 [D] <twisty> aye
13:48 [D] <JohnA> Aye
13:48 [D] <mandrke> aye
13:49 [D] <8MA_JBH> Nay
13:49 [D] <Dr Liam> Nay
13:49 [D] <Parduss> Yeah absolute majority feels deceptive.
13:49 [D] <alexjago> Nay
13:51 [D] <Miles> close voting
13:51 [D] <Miles> **Ayes:** fred, parduss, twisty, mandrake, john **Nays:** miles, deadbeat, pip, fireabroadside, morpheus, jessie, liam, alex
13:51 [D] <Miles> **Ayes (5):** fred, parduss, twisty, mandrake, john **Nays (8):** miles, deadbeat, pip, fireabroadside, morpheus, jessie, liam, alex (edited)
13:53 [D] <JohnA> Motion : adopt  6b
13:53 [D] <JohnA> Aye
13:53 [D] <twisty> aye
13:53 [D] <fred> aye
13:53 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
13:53 < jedb> aye
13:53 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
13:53 [D] <Deadbeat> Nay
13:53 [D] <Parduss> Aye
13:53 [D] <Miles> nay
13:53 [D] <8MA_JBH> Abstain
13:53 [D] <mandrke> aye
13:53 [D] <alexjago> Aye
13:53 [D] <Satch> aye
13:54 [D] <Morpheus> aye
13:54 [D] <FireABroadside> abstain
13:55 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Can we please also change 'grapples' to 'grapple' just to resolve my grammatical nervous tic in the final sentence of the first paragraph 🙂 Doesn't change context or meaning at all.
13:56 [D] <Miles> close voting
13:56 [D] <Miles> **Ayes (11):** john, twisty, fred, pip, jedb, liam, parduss, mandrake, alex, satch, morpheus **Nays (2):** deadbeat, miles
13:56 [D] <alexjago> **MOTION CARRIED** Ayes 11 (JohnA, twisty, fred, pip, jedb, Liam, Parduss, mandrke, alexjago, Satch, Morpheus); Nays 2 (Deadbeat, Miles); Abstains 2 (8MA_JBH, FireABroadside)
13:57 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Cutlesses at noon
13:57 [D] <Parduss> *Cutlasses
13:57 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Dengit, got me
13:57 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Cutlessae?
13:57 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Cutlassae? (edited)
13:58 [D] <Miles> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736824626100830208/2016-11-18-1970-Cutlass-S-1-2813-1200.jpg
13:58 [D] <Satch> If you can lay flooring I'll employ you @Miles. My whole downstairs is unusable at the moment.
13:58 [D] <twisty> half year policy forum?! HELL YEAH!
13:58 [D] <alexjago> PROCEDURAL MOTION: Extend Congress until we have finished considering PS-2, Deputy elections, and the next location of Congress
13:58 [D] <Parduss> Next location: Online
13:59 [D] <Morpheus> Fix the bloody poor audio buffering or type more!
13:59 [D] <Miles> place your votes
13:59 [D] <Miles> aye
13:59 [D] <Satch> aye
13:59 [D] <Morpheus> aye
13:59 [D] <Parduss> Aye
13:59 [D] <alexjago> Aye
13:59 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
13:59 [D] <mandrke> aye
13:59 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
13:59 < jedb> aye
13:59 [D] <twisty> aye
13:59 [D] <fred> aye
13:59 [D] <JohnA> Aye
14:00 [D] <alexjago> oh bother
14:00 [D] <alexjago> there
14:00 [D] <alexjago> there's still PM-5
14:00 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
14:01 [D] <Satch> That;'s the problem.  Set the proposed Universal Basic Income at the poverty rate
14:01 [D] <Satch> What is the poverty rate?
14:01 [D] <Satch> 1100 a fortnight?
14:01 [D] <Morpheus> Henderson Poverty level as defined by ACOSS
14:01 [D] <alexjago> I am going to propose the NC do an emergency adoption of whatever it is once we figure it out
14:01 [D] <twisty> online meetings rock
14:01 [D] <Miles> stop vote
14:01 < jedb> Morpheus: the problem is that Henderson is a relative poverty level
14:02 [D] <Morpheus> It is but it is a start is it not?
14:02 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/User:Miles_w/ubi_2020
14:02 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> They are failing becuase they lack the geek cred
14:02 [D] <twisty> oops
14:02 [D] <Miles> PROC MOTION: extend congress further until we can also address pm5
14:02 [D] <Miles> plac your votes
14:02 [D] <alexjago> PROCEDURAL MOTION ... also consider PM-5
14:02 [D] <Miles> aye
14:02 [D] <alexjago> Aye
14:03 < jedb> aye
14:03 [D] <Parduss> Aye
14:03 [D] <Miles> place your votes (edited)
14:03 [D] <Morpheus> aye
14:03 [D] <twisty> aye
14:03 [D] <mandrke> aye
14:03 [D] <FireABroadside> aye
14:03 [D] <fred> aye
14:03 [D] <Satch> nay
14:04 [D] <Miles> ok stop voting
14:04 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/User:Miles_w/ubi_2020
14:04 [D] <Satch> To clarify; I support UBI, but not with the current wording.
14:04 [D] <mandrke> @BrandonS!!!
14:05 [D] <Morpheus> As AP recipient I get by,but not have much to spare. OECD figures show Australia is one of lowest pension rates. Research says > 30% of pensioners are living in poverty.
14:06 [D] <BrandonS> Sorry. Baby stuff. What’s up?
14:06 [D] <mandrke> @BrandonS put your nomination on the wiki already!
14:07 [D] <BrandonS> Ah that. Working on it.
14:07 [D] <Morpheus> The NZ system of pensions, where base payment is received and if you earn more, it is sorted at tax time with lower rate. Not like here, where have to report each fortnight and get severe penalty/rate cut
14:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> > The NZ system of pensions, where base payment is received and if you earn more, it is sorted at tax time with lower rate. Not like here, where have to report each fortnight and get severe penalty/rate cut
14:09 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Morpheus  I think the NZ greens just got UBI adopted two weeks ago
14:09 [D] <8MA_JBH> Those pension poverty figures are misleading if you read Grattan's reports
14:09 [D] <8MA_JBH> The only pensioners in poverty are those who rent
14:09 [D] <Morpheus> The figures from OECD are wrong?
14:09 [D] <Satch> MOTION: Reword PM:6B to accomodate varioous digital currencies besides Bitcoin.
14:10 [D] <8MA_JBH> Yes, because they don't account for a variety of other factors. It's not apples with apples
14:10 [D] <Morpheus> If I remember, rent assistance hasn't been updated in a long long long time.
14:11 [D] <8MA_JBH> https://grattan.edu.au/report/money-in-retirement/
14:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> > If I remember, rent assistance hasn't been updated in a long long long time.
14:11 [D] <PP_Weekly> @Morpheus  Def an issue to bring up with kiwi 🥝 greens
14:11 [D] <twisty> err ... tax the rich
14:12 [D] <Parduss> twist, I thought it was "eat the rich"
14:12 [D] <twisty> not that many of them
14:12 [D] <twisty> I'll play in PDC again
14:13 [D] <alexjago> MOTION: Place PM-5 in a committee, being the Policy Development Committee, and require the incoming National Council to hold a Policy Meeting to adopt the PDC
14:13 [D] <Morpheus> @8MA_JBH no references, no statistics, just opinion IHMO
14:13 [D] <alexjago> ... to adopt the PDC's report if they return it before the end of 2020
14:14 [D] <Morpheus> seconded
14:14 [D] <Morpheus> if needed
14:14 [D] <Satch> @twisty eat the bankers first. Apparently they're the tastiest.
14:15 [D] <Morpheus> We should have done what Iceland did
14:15 [D] <8MA_JBH> @Morpheus  Are we reading the same report?
14:15 [D] <twisty> lock 'em up
14:15 [D] <Morpheus> @8MA_JBH the link you gave me
14:16 [D] <8MA_JBH> Did you open the PDF at the bottom?
14:16 [D] <twisty> pdf?! ... pfft
14:16 [D] <Morpheus> missed the download chart data, too light a text to see properly
14:17 [D] <Miles> #happy420
14:17 [D] <Satch> Or RumOclock. 😉
14:17 [D] <Miles> place your votes
14:18 [D] <Miles> nay
14:18 [D] <Satch> abstain
14:18 [D] <twisty> panthers 4 - Titans 0
14:18 [D] <alexjago> Nay
14:18 [D] <JohnA> Aye
14:18 [D] <Parduss> Aye
14:18 [D] <twisty> nay
14:18 [D] <fred> aye
14:18 [D] <FireABroadside> Abstain
14:18 < jedb> abstain
14:18 [D] <8MA_JBH> Abstain
14:19 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Nay
14:19 [D] <Dr Liam> Nay
14:19 [D] <Deadbeat> Nay
14:19 [D] <Morpheus> aye
14:20 [D] <mandrke> abstain
14:21 [D] <Miles> close voting
14:21 [D] <Miles> **Ayes (4): ** john, parduss, fred, morpheus **Nayes (6):** miles, alex, twisty, pip, liam, deadbeat
14:21 [D] <alexjago> Ayes 4 (JohnA, Parduss, fred, Morpheus); Nays 6 (Miles, Alex, twisty, Pip, Liam, Deadbeat); Abstain 4 (FireABroadside, jedb, 8MA_JBH, mandrke)
14:21 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/User:Miles_w/ubi_2020
14:21 [D] <Miles> (option 2)
14:22 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: Adopt PM5 (increase tax free threshold to $64,000 thus increasing the UBI base rate to $24,000)
14:22 [D] <Miles> 
14:22 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
14:23 [D] <fred> aye
14:23 [D] <Miles> place your votes
14:23 [D] <Miles> aye
14:23 < jedb> aye
14:23 [D] <twisty> aye
14:23 [D] <Morpheus> aye
14:23 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
14:23 [D] <Satch> absatain
14:23 [D] <Parduss> Aye
14:23 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
14:23 [D] <alexjago> Aye
14:23 [D] <Satch> abstain*
14:23 [D] <mandrke> aye
14:23 [D] <FireABroadside> aye
14:23 [D] <JohnA> Aye
14:23 [D] <8MA_JBH> Ayw
14:24 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
14:24 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
14:24 [D] <Parduss> Satch, well do I have an alternative for you.
14:25 [D] <Morpheus> I can see a lot of research and typing coming up to develop a replacement policy!
14:25 [D] <Satch> What's that @Parduss
14:25 [D] <Miles> **Ayes (13):** fred, miles, jedb, twisty, morpheus, liam, parduss, deadbeat, alex, mandrake, broadside, john, jessie **Nays (0): **
14:25 [D] <Parduss> You'll get to see it, ad nauseum...
14:25 [D] <Parduss> Threshold, Avg income.
14:25 [D] <twisty> panthers 10 - titans 0
14:26 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/User:Miles_w/18c_2020
14:26 [D] <Morpheus> bugger the throwball!
14:26 < jedb> I have many comments on this
14:26 [D] <Satch> Offense should never be criminal, unless it actually victimises someone.
14:27 < jedb> it is not consistent at all
14:27 < jedb> COMMENT: This proposed position statement PS-2 on repealing 18C is not something that we should be considering, as position statements not requiring a minimum period of prior notice, unlike policy motions, is an oversight.
14:27 < jedb> COMMENT: Furthermore, PS-2 is not something that we *can* consider, as it contradicts currently held policy on freedom of speech and a bill of rights. In particular all the mentions of not regulating opinions and being against hate speech laws. Before we could adopt any such position statement we would have to significantly restructure both policies.
14:27 < jedb> COMMENT: Section 18C is a mixture of things that should not be unlawful, such as offensiveness and insults, and things that are already crimes, such as intimidation. The notion that protections against things like intimidation are insufficient is laughable. To use but one state's example, in NSW such a crime can attract a prison sentence of up to 5 years.
14:28 < jedb> COMMENT: The proposed position statement points out that this whole issue is caused by tribalism and misunderstanding, but rather than any attempt to clear that up, elects to go against core values and policies. A move that will only confuse things further.
14:28 < jedb> COMMENT: What is going on here is that we have members, such as Liam, who have twisted their thinking to the point where they genuinely believe that censorship is something to be celebrated. We also apparently have members who, as part of election campaigns, went against party policies. Both of these things should be highly concerning.
14:28 < jedb> COMMENT: I wrote a very rough draft of a more sensible position statement last night, however the lack of polish on both my version and Miles' version merely goes to back up that adopting position statements on the run, like policy on the run, is not something we should be doing.
14:29 [D] <Morpheus> Many of our laws aren't consistent, and can have 2 interpretations, like the rorting by government members and how Centrelink recipients are treated for a minor mistake. Like forgetting to declare multi-million real estate and forgetting to declare 50 in income
14:30 [D] <mandrke> JedB and Liam's statements: https://pad.pirateparty.org.au/p/18c_2020
14:32 [D] <Dr Liam> https://xkcd.com/1357/
14:32 < jedb> Dr Liam: should I copy/paste your statement from last night?
14:32 [D] <Satch> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/736833414220480522/1441125143651.png
14:33 [D] <twisty> please ... attack ideas
14:33 < jedb> Dr Liam: I would be happy to debate you on insectionality on the forum after this
14:33 [D] <Morpheus> @8MA_JBH "Existing retireesof all income levels have a retirement income of at least 70 per centof their pre-retirement income – the benchmark of retirement incomeadequacy used by the OECD," This statement is not correct. I wish I had savings of that level. I spent > 3 years waiting for an operation and used up all my limited savings just to survive on Centrelink Newstart Sickn <clipped message>
14:33 [D] <Morpheus> ess. And I know many many more who had the same experience.
14:36 [D] <twisty> thanks @Dr Liam
14:36 [D] <Satch> MOTION: Break for 5 minutes.
14:36 [D] <Morpheus> @mandrke which colour is whose?
14:36 [D] <Miles> place your votes
14:36 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
14:36 [D] <Miles> aye
14:36 [D] <Parduss> Aye
14:36 [D] <alexjago> Aye
14:36 [D] <Satch> aye
14:36 < jedb> mandrke already linked it in that etherpad link
14:36 [D] <twisty> nay
14:36 [D] <Morpheus> aye
14:36 [D] <fred> aye
14:36 [D] <mandrke> aue
14:36 [D] <FireABroadside> aye
14:36 [D] <mandrke> aye
14:36 [D] <8MA_JBH> Abstain
14:36 [D] <JohnA> Ay
14:36 < jedb> Morpheus: my colour is the text written between the hyphenated lines
14:36 [D] <Satch> The 10yo is watching Terminator 2.
14:37 [D] <Miles> stop voting
14:37 [D] <Morpheus> @jedb thanks
14:37 [D] <Miles> we're now on 5 minute break
14:38 [D] <twisty> panthers10 - titans 4
14:39 [D] <Parduss> It's been years since I cared, but who do the titans rep?
14:39 [D] <twisty> a corporation
14:39 [D] <twisty> or queensland
14:40 [D] <twisty> gold coast titans
14:40 [D] <twisty> ... killing time
14:41 [D] <twisty> nothings perfect.
14:41 [D] <twisty> '
14:42 < jedb> http://www.quoteslides.com/large/Slide047.JPG
14:42 [D] <Miles> ok time is up
14:42 [D] <twisty> panthers 14 - titans 4
14:43 [D] <twisty> 16
14:43 [D] <mandrke> do we need NRL Scores?
14:43 [D] <twisty> yep
14:43 [D] <Parduss> I think a thought to consider is what is the public square?
14:44 [D] <Satch> COVID death scores would be more appropriate.
14:44 [D] <twisty> no contrest
14:44 < jedb> Parduss: platform vs publisher issues are a current policy blindspot imo
14:44 [D] <twisty> USA!
14:44 < jedb> which comment?
14:45 < jedb> ah, would it help if I copy/pasted the comment that I was referring to from last night in this channel?
14:45 [D] <Satch> yes jedb
14:45 [D] <Pip Foweraker> 'twisted their thinking' seems like an ad hominem regardless
14:46 < jedb> [D] <Dr Liam> For that matter, sweeping claims that "shaming/doxing/mobbing is how they do things" about people involved in the fight for civil liberties is not appropriate in the slightest. Whatever personal problems you may have with cancel culture, deplatforming, etc, these phenomenon are a direct and natural result of the fact that speech has consequences. People exercising their free spee <clipped message>
14:46 < jedb> [D] <Dr Liam> ch rights to make bigots feel real consequences from their actions should be celebrated, not demonized
14:46 < jedb> statements from in this channel at approx 8pm last night
14:47 < jedb> COMMENT: those are quotes from last night
14:48 [D] <Parduss> I think, take this to the forum...
14:48 < jedb> deplatforming is when activists persuade a platform to remove a person, despite the platform and person being fine with the arrangement previously, it is most definitely censorship
14:48 [D] <twisty> https://discuss.pirateparty.org.au/
14:49 < jedb> Parduss: agreed
14:50 [D] <Satch> *ouch
14:50 < jedb> Liam: as stated, the forums
14:51 [D] <Satch> All popular social media platforms have their own bias.
14:51 [D] <Morpheus> Bugga, membership current, but no login to forums!
14:51 [D] <twisty> I luv discuss
14:52 [D] <alexjago> @Morpheus they're currently separate things
14:52 [D] <twisty> bit quiet lately
14:53 [D] <JohnA> Reality - this sort of intereaction means more to people.
14:53 < jedb> COMMENT: calling anything 18C covers as "discrimination" is honestly an abuse of terminology
14:53 [D] <Morpheus> @alexjago Used to have one, have created new one thanks.
14:54 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/User:Miles_w/18c_2020
14:56 [D] <twisty> it's getting late
14:56 < jedb> twisty: agreed
14:56 [D] <twisty> move it to discuss
14:56 < jedb> twisty: also agreed :P
14:56 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I am also happy to host a more formalised debate amongst us fine folks, perhaps using a forum like the Oxford debates / Intelligence Squared debates
14:57 [D] <Pip Foweraker> At another time and in another place
14:57 [D] <Morpheus> Yep, it needs a lot more debate at another time and place.
14:58 [D] <twisty> I encourage someONE to start a discuss
14:58 < jedb> the urgency is an illusion
14:58 < jedb> twisty: I was already planning on starting a fun discuss topic on social justice after this, which isn't quite the same topic, but it will be spicy
14:58 [D] <JohnA> Yes seems every congress we note stuff that is overdue to sort out.
14:59 [D] <Miles> unfortunately yes john 😩
14:59 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  MOTION: Adopt PS2
14:59 [D] <Miles> 
14:59 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
14:59 [D] <Miles> place your votes
14:59 [D] <Miles> aye
14:59 < jedb> nay
14:59 [D] <Deadbeat> Nay
14:59 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
14:59 [D] <fred> aye
14:59 [D] <alexjago> Abstain
14:59 [D] <Satch> aye + a dash of tabasco.
14:59 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
14:59 [D] <twisty> lol ... abstain
15:00 [D] <JohnA> Abstain
15:00 [D] <mandrke> aye with dash of sriacha
15:00 [D] <mandrke> aye with dash of sriracha (edited)
15:00 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
15:01 [D] <Morpheus> aye
15:01 < jedb> a statement of intent to abandon freedom of speech, yes
15:02 [D] <Morpheus> Sriracha needs more spice!
15:02 [D] <Satch> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvFjtKPNfNE
15:03 [D] <Miles> **Ayes (8):** Miles, liam, fred, satch, fireabroadside, mandrake, pip, morpheus **Nays (2):** jedb, deadbeat
15:03 [D] <alexjago> ☑️  **MOTION CARRIED** Ayes: 8 (Liam, fred, Satch, FireABroadside, mandrke, Miles, Pip, Morpheus); Nays 2 (jedb, Deadbeat); Abstain 3 (alexjago, JohnA, twisty)
15:03 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  PROCEDURAL MOTION: Permanently amend congress standing orders to take immediate effect such that section 3 (1) be changed to read "Motions to amend the platform or policies (including introducing new policies and position statements)"
15:03 [D] <Miles> 
15:03 [D] <Miles> (dont vote yet)
15:04 < jedb> alexjago: see, now... now is when democracy dies to the sound of thunderous applause (or a bunch of "ayes", anyway :P)
15:05 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
15:05 [D] <Miles> place your votes now
15:05 [D] <Miles> aye
15:05 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
15:05 [D] <Satch> aye
15:05 [D] <fred> aye
15:05 [D] <mandrke> aye
15:05 < jedb> aye
15:05 [D] <Parduss> Aye
15:05 [D] <Morpheus> aye
15:05 [D] <Satch> Congress will be online again.
15:05 [D] <FireABroadside> aye
15:05 [D] <JohnA> Aye
15:06 [D] <alexjago> Aye
15:06 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
15:06 [D] <Parduss> If you want an in person event, Lan Party it ya nerds.
15:06 [D] <twisty> aye
15:06 [D] <Miles> close voting
15:07 [D] <alexjago> **CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY**
15:07 [D] <FireABroadside> I'm always keen for an excuse to travel, but admittedly, online worked well for me.
15:08 [D] <alexjago> I'm in favour of online only
15:08 [D] <Satch> I finally bought a house, so you're welcome to stay here for a holiday whenever you like.
15:08 < jedb> online only is cheaper, so there's that...
15:08 [D] <twisty> online
15:08 [D] <JohnA> No strong feelings either way.
15:09 [D] <alexjago> I support Liam's proposal too
15:09 [D] <Morpheus> Online is best for me, just have to fix the audio buffering issues
15:10 [D] <Miles> 🗳️  PROCEDURAL MOTION: National Congress 2021 to be held entirely online, like this year
15:10 [D] <Miles> 
15:10 [D] <Miles> ⏱️  Voting closes in three minutes. Please respond "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain".
15:10 [D] <Miles> place your votes
15:10 [D] <Parduss> Aye
15:10 [D] <Miles> aye
15:10 [D] <mandrke> aye
15:10 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Aye
15:10 [D] <JohnA> Abstain
15:10 [D] <fred> aye
15:10 < jedb> nay
15:10 [D] <alexjago> Abstain
15:10 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
15:10 [D] <twisty> aye
15:10 [D] <Satch> aye
15:10 [D] <Dr Liam> Abstain, because I have truly no preference one way or the other
15:10 [D] <Satch> with house parties 😉
15:10 [D] <twisty> *crickets
15:10 < jedb> my preference would be to name a physical location and fall back to online only if necessary
15:11 [D] <Parduss> *waves back*
15:11 [D] <Morpheus> abstain
15:11 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Abstain (edited) (edited)
15:11 [D] <Miles> stop voting
15:11 [D] <BrandonS> Aye
15:11 [D] <BrandonS> Whoops
15:12 [D] <Morpheus> Is there not supposed to be a time limit for voting?
15:12 [D] <Satch> MOTION: All pirates should take a shot of Rum now. 😉
15:12 [D] <Morpheus> aye
15:12 [D] <mandrke> https://meet.jit.si/PiratePartyAustraliaCongress2020
15:13 [D] <Morpheus> I wish I could use Jitsi,but internet connection keeps buffering
15:13 [D] <Dr Liam> I'm on mute, they're not the crickets in my yard.
15:13 [D] <Miles> @BrandonS we're onto your nomination
15:13 [D] <Miles> @Satch yes they're just outside my window
15:13 [D] <Parduss> Satch drink when we finish... not before, ya lush.
15:13 [D] <Morpheus> Can't get Jitsi to work at present, because it wants Java 8, and I need 11 for other applications.
15:13 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Oh boy I wish it was warm enough for crickets
15:13 [D] <Satch> nasty!
15:13 [D] <Miles> @BrandonS if you want to speak to your nomination now briefly?
15:14 [D] <BrandonS> Yeah. Vote for me while y’all get liquored up
15:14 [D] <Morpheus> Should wait until second or third shot
15:14 [D] <Miles> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2020/Nominations#Brandon_Selic
15:14 [D] <twisty> lol ... @BrandonS
15:14 [D] <BrandonS> Sure.
15:14 [D] <twisty> Brandon Selic has nominated for Deputy President. You have nominated uncontested. Do you accept This Position?
15:14 [D] <mandrke> Morpheus, we are using Jitsi meet, which is a web app
15:15 [D] <BrandonS> I accept
15:15 [D] <twisty> done
15:15 [D] <Miles> MOTION: close congress 2020
15:15 [D] <Miles> place your votes
15:15 [D] <Parduss> Aye
15:15 [D] <Satch> aye
15:15 [D] <Pip Foweraker> Heckin AYE
15:15 [D] <twisty> nay
15:15 < jedb> abstain :P
15:15 [D] <8MA_JBH> Aye
15:15 [D] <Admiral William: PPNO> "Cricket sounds"
15:15 [D] <Miles> aye
15:15 [D] <Morpheus> aye
15:15 [D] <mandrke> aye
15:15 [D] <fred> aye
15:15 [D] <alexjago> Aye
15:15 [D] <FireABroadside> Aye
15:15 [D] <BrandonS> Aye
15:15 [D] <Deadbeat> Aye
15:15 [D] <Pip Foweraker> I am slowly learning that Jedb has a STRONG contrarian streak 😉
15:15 [D] <Dr Liam> Aye
15:15 [D] <JohnA> Aye
15:16 [D] <Morpheus> @mandrke - I know, it keeps dropping out  - there was a problem, then tries to reconnect
15:16 < jedb> Pip Foweraker: only sometimes (no this totally doesn't count as being further contrarian, shush)
15:16 [D] <Satch> I love that we managed this entire Congress without any mention of BLM. 😉
15:16 [D] <Pip Foweraker> "Motion: We acknowledge the sky is usually blue when it is daytime" Jedb: DOUBLE NAY _sets building on fire_
15:16 [D] <Morpheus> I also tried the Youtube livestreaming, same issue
15:16 [D] <Parduss> Miles, might I suggest, we encourage social events, involving using this tech, giving us a less formal setting to fix the issues.
15:17 [D] <Miles> close voting, motion passes
15:17 [D] <Parduss> Bitches, get ya drink on!
15:17 [D] <Miles> congress 2020 has now closed
15:17 < jedb> I happen to strongly support civil rights, is all
15:17 [D] <alexjago> **CONGRESS HAS CLOSED**

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##### End of Congress at 17:17 AEST, 26th July 2020. ##########################
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