Minutes/National Council/2016-08-24

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Meeting Minutes
This document is a record of a meeting. Do not edit this document without contacting the relevant group first.

Agenda

Start: 20:42 AEST End: AEST

Attendance

  • Fletcher Boyd
  • Mark Gibbons
  • Thomas Randle
  • Peter Fulton
  • Simon Frew
  • Andrew Downing
  • Michael Keating
  • David Crafti (late)
  • Mozart Palmer (Inquiries Officer/DRC)

Apologies

  • Emily Sievers
  • David Crafti


Minutes

Previous meetings minutes

Action Items

Bios

  • Still in progress

Bank changeover

  • Mark has one more meeting with ANZ then account changeover will begin

IRC Administration

  • In progress

MemberDB investigation

  • In progress

IT Audit

  • In progress, mostly finished

Project management

  • In progress

PAX

  • Application has been sent, waiting on response

Document conversion

  • Mozart has made significant progress on document conversion

Name change debate

  • Consensus is to leave everything until after the Icelandic election
    • Simon Frew would prefer to kill the debate completely

Tall ship fundraiser

  • Decent feedback from Facebook (where the idea was initially pitched to gauge interest)
  • Simon calculates 100x$100 would allow $2000 profit
  • Pirate shows/climbing additional $1500
  • Booking allows for leeway if cancelled a month before, allows for ticket presale
  • Eventbrite supports presale/ticket refunds and is more stable than Pozible
  • CFV to come later

Pirate Bureau

  • Idea is to create a media collective with the aim of producing memes, sharable content, videos etc with more autonomy for the participants
  • Simon wants to wait until after the Sydney meetup to lock in more details
  • Thomas applauds the enthusiasm but doesn't want a repeat of the campaigns committee, suggests clear goals
  • Mozart suggests more discussion surrounding authorisation processes is due

Abolish certain committees

  • Proposed motion: Abolish the Congress Review Committee, the Internet Engineering Committee, and the Party Constitution Review Committee.
  • Mozart: None of these Committees appear to have held meetings in the last twelve months, or to be fulfilling their terms of reference. They do still technically exist, but in the interests of flattening the structure and pruning the dead wood, they should go.
  • Thomas suggests redirecting existing members to other projects if they're still active
  • Reduces internal groups from 11 to 8
  • See motions

Amendments to existing documents

The following proposals were dealt with as a single motion, see below.

Amendments to the By-laws

Several stylistic changes have been made, including emdashes and sentence case in the headings. Enactment dates have been added where missing, and the format of the history details has been changed to be more clear. The lists have been made consistent and correct so that there is no capital letter at the start of sub-list items, as well as the inserting of 'and' and 'or' between all independent (A or B) and interdependent (X and Y) list items. Some other general and minor changes have been made.

By-law 2013-01 has been amended to remove redundant provisions. It referred to 'Article 8.1.3' of the Party Constitution (it should have read 'Article 8.1(3)') which concerned the number of officer positions a member of the National Council could hold. The Party Constitution has since been amended so that this was replaced with Article 10.1(5) which refers to the number of National Council positions one member could hold. This provision has been removed from By-law 2013-01. Also removed is the reference to interim replacements, which was probably included because State and Territory Coordinators were once elected by Congress — it makes little sense for the National Council to appoint an interim replacement when they appoint the Coordinator. Lastly, some awkward wording relating to state and territory parties was removed as a state or territory branch is a 'formally formed state or territory party'.

Some changes to By-law 2013-02 were made to remove some complex language that made its operation unclear, including changing the wording so that 'nominees' are the people who may become 'candidates' if they pass requirements of the by-law. Some other small changes were made to terminology.

It is recommended that the National Council review the character assessment and disclosure requirements of By-law 2013-02 because it is currently confusing and contradictory. It currently allows the National Council to require a nominee to disclose on the preselection ballot anything in the police background check. However, it doesn't require background checks until after the ballot, at which point it is too late to do anything other than have the candidate withdraw. It is suggested that the National Council amend it so that police background checks for all nominees are required by the National Council before the ballot is issued.

Some of the definitions in By-law 2014-01 were improved slightly, and links to constitutional sections have been added to By-law 2015-01.

It is also recommended that repealed by-laws either be removed entirely or moved to an archive page. They can be accessed by looking at the revision history, but currently they do not have any content. This is unnecessarily unhelpful as it provides no real historical information while cluttering the page.

Amendments to the National Council Resolutions

Several stylistic changes have been made, including adding links to minutes and the dates of making, and the format of the history details has been changed to be more clear. Any incorrect dates have been corrected, and headings have been added to aid readers as to the contents of each Resolution.

Resolution 2011-1 had the effect of starting 'current memberships' (those that existed before registration) from the date of registration. As it was created in 2011, the Party was not yet registered. The practical effect of Resolution 2011-1 was that annual membership fees for those members would be payable on the anniversary of registration (or perhaps the day after). The amendments to Resolution 2011 make it clear that membership fees for those persons who became members on or before 17 January (the date of registration) if an annual membership fee is set (currently there is no annual membership fee).

The list in Resolution 2011-4 has been neatened up, and a redundant line removed. A note has been added that minutes are unavailable for the 2 August 2012 National Council meeting; the minutes were never published on the Wiki for some reason, and finding them would be next to impossible. Resolution 2011-5 has been changed to focus on who can have an @pirateparty.org.au email address rather than making references to groups that are unnecessary. Resolution 2011-6 has been made more readable, redundancies have been removed, numbering has been added and so has a history.

Minor changes have been made to Resolutions 2013-2 and 2013-3, and 'payment' in Resolution 2013-4 was changed to 'funding and reimbursements' to make it clear what the purpose is. No changes were made to Resolution 2013-5 apart from adding a heading and correcting the history.

Amendments to the Charter of Responsibilities

Numbering has been added, three sections have been amalgamated into one, and some unnecessary parts have been removed. Some changes have been made to the lists.

Amendments to the IRC Code of Conduct

Some tidying up and improvements to the flow have been made.

Amendments to the Authorisation Processes

The redundant 'Note 1' in the Press Releases section has been removed, as has the undefined distinction between primary and secondary policies in the Press Releases and Submissions sections. External links have been changed to https, and some small changes have been made to the grammar. It has been made clear that publishing submissions to the website can occur as soon as feasible, to allow time for when we might need to delay publication in order to ensure a submission attracts Parliamentary Privilege.

Amendments to the National Congress Standing Orders

Some changes have been made to allow better numbering. Certain conventions have been codified in relation to nominations, chiefly that nominees will be heard on the second day (which is implied anyway), and that nominees only present once even if they've nominated for several positions. The deadline for nominations has been extended to the start of business on the second day, because nominations get added to the Wiki by the nominee. This gives nominees an extra evening, so that Congress can be adjourned without inconveniencing them.

Also specified is that the National Council must appoint a minute-taker. Daniel had mentioned that it was difficult for him to take minutes, be the remote chair, and record votes at the same time. It is necessary to have at least one person making minutes at all times. Further, the procedures for announced motions have been cleaned up to remove the requirement for equal speakers for and against, because Congress doesn't normally follow that and it's probably too adversarial for consensus-building.

Amendments to motions that are 'owned by Congress' have been tidied up. This includes constitutional amendment proposals and Policy Development Committee proposals. The rationale is that constitutional amendment proposals are to be treated with more seriousness than other motions so amendments should be debated more rigourously, and that motions presented by the PDC should not be able to be amended by the person presenting them, as they were at least in theory written and agreed to by the Committee, not the member presenting them.

Motions to commit, table and postpone have been clarified slightly, and the procedural motion to discard a previous vote has been rewritten for clarity.

Adopt National Council Resolution 2016-1 — Internal groups

  • Proposed motion: Adopt the proposed 'National Council Resolution 2016-1 — Internal groups'

This Resolution defines four types of internal group that are created by the National Council or a Committee. This does nothing apart from clarify the difference between them, as a guide for naming and structuring these internal groups. Committees coordinating or monitoring groups that are created by terms of reference enacted by the National Council, are formally structured, organised democratically, led by an Officer who is required to be a full member, and are required to meet regularly (such as the Policy Development Committee and the Election Committee). Teams are similar, except they lack formal structure, are not organised democratically, have ongoing responsibility for a specific area (such as press releases), are led by an Officer who is not necessarily a full member, and may (or may not) be required to meet regularly per their terms of reference (such as the Press Team, Social Media Team, and the Programming Team). Working groups are created either by the National Council or a committee (such as policy working groups created by the Policy Development Committee), and are the most flexible internal group, their defining feature being that they are created to perform a specific task at fixed intervals (such as the Internal Elections Working Group) or for a fixed duration (eg, inquiry working groups that dissolve once a submission has been made or deadline passed, or policy working groups that dissolve once a policy has been completed).

Relevant to this is the proposed terms of reference standard below, which includes in the template a section titled 'status' — this is used to assign a special status on a group that is not apparent from the name. For example, the 'Propaganda Bureau' under development could be given the status of committee, team or working group. This would bind it by any NC Resolutions or By-laws relating to that type of internal group. 

==Resolution 2016-1 — Internal groups==

# A 'committee' is an internal group that
## is constituted by a terms of reference, and
## is subordinate to the National Council, and
## is formally structured, and
## is led or chaired by an Officer who must be a full member, and
## is organised democratically, and
## is required to meet regularly, and
## has a coordinating or monitoring role.
# A 'team' is an internal group that
## is constituted by a terms of reference, and
## is subordinate to the National Council, and
## is not formally structured, and
## is led by an Officer, and
## is not organised democratically, and
## has ongoing responsibility for a specific area of activity, and
## may be required meet regularly.
# A 'working group' is an internal group that
## is subordinate to the National Council or a committee, and
## is not formally structured, and
## performs a specific task at fixed intervals or for a fixed duration, and
## may be
### constituted by a terms of reference, or
### created as an ad hoc group, or
### led by an Officer, or
### organised democratically, or
### required to meet regularly.
  • See motions

Adopt the Terms of Reference Standard

  • Proposed motion: Adopt the proposed Terms of Reference Standard
The Terms of Reference Standard provides a template for drafting terms of reference for internal groups. Terms of Reference should be written in present tense, and use the following headings where relevant.

Purpose

[Begins with 'The <body> is established to' and summarises the purpose of the body.]

Coordination

[Sets out how the body is managed, such as by an officer or officers, or by the National Council.]

Membership

[Sets out who can be a member of the body and how they apply to be a member.]

Status

[Can confer a status on a body if it's not obvious from the title.]

Objectives and responsibilities

[Sets out what a body is intended to do, and any requirements the body or its coordinators may have in regard to reporting, oversight and holding meetings.]

Powers

[Sets out what a body is empowered to do to achieve the objectives if these are not obvious from the objectives and responsibilities or are unusual.]

Budgetary requirements

[Sets out whether and how the body is to be funded, which will typically be either 'Any expenditure must be authorised by the National Council in advance' (for groups likely to be making proposals requiring funding) or 'The <group> is not expected to incur any expenses of its own, but may request funds from the National Council if required'.]

Internal communication

[Sets out any special provisions as to internal communications of the body.]

Decision-making procedure

[Sets out any special provisions as to decision-making procedures of the body.]

Expected duration

[Sets out the expected duration of the body and how it is to be wrapped up; if indefinite the phrase 'The <group> is expected to last indefinitely' is suggested.]

There is significant inconsistency in the terms of reference, both in written quality and formatting. This template outlines the headings and contents of terms of reference so that all information necessary to properly constitute an internal group are included. It also removes the weird 'name of group' convention that is added awkwardly at the start of every terms of reference, despite appearing in both the title of the page/terms of reference and the purpose.

  • See motions

Modify various terms of reference

  • The following motions were dealt with as a block.
  • Proposed motion: Amend the Election Committee Terms of Reference
==Purpose==

The Election Committee is established to oversee and coordinate the Pirate Party's Federal Election and By-Election Campaigns.

==Coordination==

# The Election Committee is coordinated by the President of the Party.
# Meetings of the Election Committee are chaired by the President or another member of the Committee as delegated by the President.

==Membership==

# The Election Committee consists of
## at least two members of the National Council, and
## the President, and
## the Registered Officer, and
## any Deputy Registered Officers, and
## the Design Officer, and
## the Press Officer, and
## the Social Media Officer, and
## all candidates, and
## other members.
# There is no formal process to become a member of the Election Committee.
# Members may join the Election Committee by attending Election Committee meetings.

==Objectives and responsibilities==

# The Committee must develop and publish a timeline that includes important dates related to the election.
# The Committee is responsible for organising the election campaign launch, public meetings and media stunts in conjunction with the National Council and other internal groups.
# The Committee must
## work with the National Council and other internal groups to develop an integrated election campaign, and
## liase with the Treasurer and Deputy Treasurer to raise funds for publicity, and
## organise activities designed to raise the profile of the Party and its candidates, and
## organise the content and distribution of how-to-vote cards, and
## develop a simple election campaign theme or concept that sums up why the Pirate Party exists and what it offers the electorate, and
## develop a plan for the election day, including
### using statistics from the Australian Electoral Commission to determine which polling booths should be targeted, and
### determining the quantity of materials to be provided to campaigners, and
### coordinating candidates' and campaigners' activities on the election day, and
### ensuring campaigners are properly prepared for and supported on the election day, and
# During the election campaign the Committee must document its processes to assist with preparing an analysis of the campaign.
# Following the election, the Committee must
## conduct an analysis of the election to highlight lessons and results, and
## compile and present a report to the membership for discussion and future reference.

==Budgetary requirements==

Any expenditure must be authorised by the National Council in advance.

==Expected duration==

# The Committee is convened or reconvened by the National Council when it becomes apparent that an election is expected to be held.
# The Committee is dissolved a month after the relevant election or until a month after the relevant results are made known, whichever is later.

The current Election Committee terms of reference specified that the Committee dissolved following the 2013 Federal Election. This means that every Election Committee since then has not been properly constituted. What that means is debatable, but this should be transformed into something more permanent. This has better defined the coordination of the Committee. The membership is explicitly intended to put an obligation on specified officers and candidates, while keeping the flexible membership as being any member who turns up to meetings. The objectives and responsibilities section has been neatened and hopefully made more logical.

  • Proposed motion: Amend the Internal Elections Working Group Terms of Reference
==Purpose==

The Internal Elections Working Group is established to manage the internal elections of the Pirate Party.

==Membership==

# Members of the Working Group are appointed by the National Council.
# It is preferable that the member who handles the ballots
## is not taking part in the election, and
## is not a member of the National Council.

==Objectives and responsibilities==

# The Working Group must conduct all internal elections.
# The Working Group must treat all confidential private information, such as emails and tokens, with utmost care.
# The Working Group must ensure that the ballots are at a high standard of usability.
# The Working Group must
## publish all ballots with identifiable information removed at the conclusion of each election, and
## publish the election results in a human-readable form.

==Budgetary requirements==

The Working Group is not intended to incur any expenses of its own.

==Internal communication==

The Working Group may determine its own tools and procedures for communication.

==Decision-making procedure==

Decision-making should be democratic, and decisions should be made through consensus.

==Expected duration==

The Working Group is expected to last indefinitely.

There are no significant changes, just some improvements for consistency.

  • Proposed motion: Change the name of the International Relations Team to the 'Foreign and International Relations Team'.
  • Proposed motion: Amend the International Relations Team Terms of Reference
==Purpose==

The Foreign and International Relations Team is established to make recommendations to the National Council relating to international and foreign organisations of a similar nature to Pirate Party Australia, and to liase with those organisations if and when authorised to do so by the National Council.

==Coordination==

# The Team is coordinated by the Foreign and International Relations Officer.
# The Foreign International Relations Officer is appointed by the National Council.

==Membership==

# Membership is open to all members of Pirate Party Australia.
# Applications for membership must be made via email to the National Council ([mailto:[email protected] [email protected]]).

==Objectives and responsibilities==

# The Team must not communicate with international and foreign organisations without the prior approval of the National Council.
# The National Council may grant the Team approval on a case-by-case basis or in broad terms.
# The Team is responsible for
## communicating with international and foreign organisations as approved and appropriate, and
## sharing information between Pirate Party Australia and international and foreign organisations, and
## researching improvements in relevant problem areas and reporting its findings to the National Council, and
## providing assistance to international or foreign organisations within or relevant to the Pirate Movement that wish to adopt Pirate Party Australia's procedures and technologies, and
## identifying, and resolving where possible, problems in international communication.
# The Foreign and International Relations Officer must provide reports to the National Council on request.

==Budgetary requirements==

The Team is not expected to incur any expenses of its own, but may request funds from the National Council if required.

==Tools and procedures for communication==

# The Team may determine its own communication procedures.
# The Team should endeavour to remain accessible to other organisations.

==Decision-making procedure==

Decision-making should be democratic, and decisions should be made through consensus where possible.

==Expected duration==

The Team is expected to last indefinitely.

The terms of reference have been updated to specify that the team is intended to deal with international and foreign organisations — international organisations span multiple countries, but foreign organisations are domestic organisations in other countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_organization provides a good definition of the former). The name is suggested to be changed to reflect this. Details for joining the Foreign and International Relations Team have been added. References to PPI have been removed as it does not need to be specified — PPI is an international organisation. Otherwise changes have been minor and have been made simply to improve clarity.

  • Proposed motion: Amend the Policy Development Committee Terms of Reference
==Purpose==

# The Policy Development Committee is established to research and develop draft policies that may be adopted by a vote at a National Congress or Policy Meeting.
# The Committee should be recommended as the first step a member takes when developing a policy proposal, and members should be encouraged to work with the Committee where possible.
# The Committee is also responsible for preparing submissions to relevant governmental and parliamentary inquiries and reviews that advocate the Party's policies.
# Where a policy is not comprehensive, the Committee must promote a position based on the spirit and intention of existing policies.

==Coordination==

# The Committee is coordinated by the Policy Development Officer.
# The Policy Development Officer must be a full member of the Pirate Party.
# The Policy Development Officer is elected by preferential vote of the membership at the Annual National Congress.
# The Policy Development Officer's term lasts until the next Annual National Congress.
# If the National Congress fails to elect a Policy Development Officer, the National Council may appoint a suitable full member to this position.
# An Inquiries Officer is appointed by the National Council to coordinate and review submissions.

==Membership==

# The Committee must consist of at least five members.
# Applications for membership must be made via email to the National Council ([mailto:[email protected] [email protected]]).
# Committee members are required to devote time and effort to writing complete policy amendments.
# Committee members are expected to organise themselves internally to
## chair and manage meetings, and
## form working groups for the development of specific policies, and
## set deadlines for the completion of tasks.
# At a minimum, Committee members are expected to have
## the ability to work professionally within a committee, and
## a high level of reading comprehension, and
## the ability to write succinctly, and
## the ability to explain complex issues in laypersons' terms, and
## the inclination to read policy statements of other parties and organisations, and
## a broad understanding of Pirate Party Australia's platform and policies, and
## a willingness to consult with outside organisations in order to develop policy recommendations, and
## an ability and willingness to research and comprehend the legal issues, principles and practices relevant to the Party platform and policies (even if limited to one particular area), and
## basic wiki editing skills or a willingness to learn.

==Objectives and responsibilities==

# The Policy Development Officer is responsible for managing and overseeing any policy-related projects undertaken by the Committee.
# Coordination of inquiry and review submissions (and related working groups) is the responsibility of the Inquiries Officer.
# The Committee may accept or reject any proposals put to it by a member of the Party.
# The Committee will research a proposed policy to determine its viability, and may reject a proposal if it is considered unviable.
# The Committee will, in consultation with the person who proposed the policy, draft a platform amendment or policy document for presentation at the next National Congress or Policy Meeting.
# The Committee must have regular meetings.
# The Committee is responsible for updating and maintaining policy FAQ documents.
# The Committee must publish documents explaining all committee processes.
# The Policy Development Officer must inform the National Council each time the Committee
## finalises a policy proposal, or
## completes a review of existing policy.
# The Policy Development Officer must inform a member if the Committee
## accepts or rejects their proposal without further consideration, or
## accepts or rejects their proposal after examining its viability, or
## begins work on developing their proposal, or
## completes work on developing their proposal.
# The Policy Development Officer or a nominated stand in must
## chair regular meetings of the Committee, and
## inform members at national meetings of policies and submissions under development, and
## maintain a wiki page that lists policies and submissions under development with a brief description of each, and
## actively inform the member base of the existence of working groups.

==Powers==

# The Committee may consult with outside organisations in order to develop policy recommendations.
# The Committee may independently initiate a review of the platform or other policy documents and present a revised version at a National Congress or Policy Meeting.
# The Committee does not have the power to change policy, but may amend spelling and grammatical errors, citations, and variable provisions.
# The Committee cannot prevent members from developing and proposing policies independently.
# The Committee may invoke National Council Resolution 2011-6.
# The Committee is not required to accept any new proposals if there is less than four weeks until an Annual National Congress.

==Budgetary requirements==

The Committee is not expected to incur any expenses of its own, but may request funds from the National Council if required.

==Tools and procedures for communication==

# The Committee may determine its own tools and procedures for communication, but there should be accessible means of communication for all members of the Party.
# Tools and procedures must follow any applicable by-laws.

== Decision-making procedure==

# Decision-making should be democratic, and decisions made through consensus.
# A two-thirds majority of all Committee members must be met for a decision to be valid.

==Expected duration==

The Committee is expected to last indefinitely.

Numbering has been added to the purpose section, but nothing material about the purpose has changed. Specifies that the Policy Development Officer must be a full member, and makes it clear when their terms ends, while making it clear that the NC can appoint a person if necessary. Removed the unnecessary requirement that the five members of the PDC included the PDO but not the Inquiries Officer. Added details for making applications. Relaxed the requirements relating to knowledge of the platform and relevant laws — broad understanding of the platform and an ability to research and comprehend the relavent issues, principles and practices should be sufficient. The unnecessarily onerous reporting requirements that required notifying the National Council on almost every issue have been removed, but it has been made clear that the PDO must keep members who have made proposals in the loop. It now also specifies 'National Congress or Policy Meeting' for when draft policies may be adopted or presented. Other changes have been made purely to improve readability and to fit the template proposed for terms of reference.

  • Proposed motion: Amend the Programming Team Terms of Reference
==Purpose==

The Programming Team is established to develop software and tools to improve the functioning of the Pirate Party.

==Coordination==

# The Team is coordinated by the Programming Officer.
# The Programming Officer is appointed by the National Council.
# The Programming Officer will liase with the National Council and other internal groups on behalf of any project leader as required.
# The structure of each project will be determined by the Team according to its requirements.

==Membership==

The Team may admit persons it feels are necessary or capable of contributing.

==Objectives and responsibilities==

# The Team is to develop software and tools that
## promote participatory democratic principles, and
## assist in the operation of the Party.
# All software produced by the Team is to be made open source, with the licensing structure at the discretion of the Team.
# The Programming Officer must provide a statement to the National Congress of projects and undertaken and progress made through either
## a blog,
## a formal report,
## a Wiki page, or
## some other appropriate means.

==Powers==

# The Team may consult with any professional, expert, group or organisation it feels may contribute or be of benefit to its projects.
# The Programming Officer may act as spokesperson for the projects or work of the Team.
# The Team may make suggestions for changes to Party policies or organisational structure if it feels necessary.
# The Team may independently engage any other internal group.
# The group may determine its own method and frequency of reporting.

==Budgetary requirements==

Any expenditure must be authorised by the National Council in advance.

==Internal communication==

# Most discussion should be held on
## the [https://lists.pirateparty.org.au/cgi-bin/dada/mail.cgi/list/DiscPWG/ Programming Team discussion mailing list], or
## the #ppau-pwg IRC channel.
# If other tools are required for communication the Team may engage the IT Team to implement those tools.

==Decision-making procedure==

Decision-making should be democratic, and decisions made through consensus.

==Expected duration==

The Team is expected to last indefinitely.

Generally only minor changes have been made to make this fit the proposed terms of reference template. One important change is that the Programming Officer has been changed from being appointed on recommendation to simply being appointed by the National Council. This was a necessary change because currently (1) the Programming Officer was appointed by the National Council on recommendation of the Team, but (2) the Team admitted its own members. If the National Council appoints the Programming Officer, the Team will always have at least one member to admit new members and grow from there.

Eventbrite reimbursement

  • Due to the way Eventbrite collects fees some are collected as an invoice after the event
  • Fletcher has paid the $21.53 and forwarded the invoice to Treasury
  • See motions

Xero

  • Xero is the accounting software used by the party
  • Mark believes that it is not a good use of $600/yr based on our usecase
  • We do not meet the criteria for NFP discounts
  • Tom would like to see a pro/con list beyond the cost
  • David Crafti suggests that we need something that is easy to manage, has portable or shareable data, and can't be doctored. So, not excel, but he's open to not Xero.
In the interest of accuracy the following discussion has been pasted directly. Times are in AWST.
[19:55:58] @Rundll : I'm interested in transferable and accessible at any time by multiple people
[19:56:01] @MarkG : the ideal will be to put a financial component in memberDB
[19:56:11] @Rundll : as features to how treasury manages things
[19:56:30] Keating : there's a world of online hosted accounting suites now
[19:56:45] Keating : would we be better placed to look at this in 6 months time or so?
[19:56:58] @Rundll : Right so it needs more research and a solid proposal?
[19:57:10] Keating : not the junking Xero part, no
[19:57:21] Keating : the part where we choose something cost effective to manage finances, yes
[19:57:23] @Frew : yeah think that is pretty straight forward
[19:57:23] @MarkG : if we kick it off for 6 months it'll cost us another $300
[19:57:24] Keating : imo
[19:57:34] @MarkG : it's not a good use of our donated money
[19:57:58] Keating : it's not worth paying money for something if we aren't using it or doesn't have the features we need
[19:57:59] @Rundll : I'm not happy with "cancel Xero" and MarkG will use a spreadsheet as the solution
[19:58:16] @Frew : I am for now
[19:58:20] Keating : but we don't use Xero uch anyway?
[19:58:29] Keating : $300 is a lot to defer a decision
[19:58:43] @MarkG : i've been keeping the xero going, but I judge the value add isn't worth the cost
[19:58:44] @AndrewD : If our Treasurer says he doesn't need to pay $600 for a tool, then why not just go with that?
[19:58:46] @dcrafti : Keating, are there any particular hosted accounting apps you've seen that are cheaper and have enough functionality?
[19:59:00] @Rundll : AndrewD:
[19:59:00] @Rundll : 24-08-16 22:00:03 <Rundll> I'm interested in transferable and accessible at any time by multiple people
[19:59:15] Keating : MYOB and Reckon all do hosted stuff, but I'm not up to speed with their pricing dcrafti
[19:59:24] Keating : or whether they have an NFP pricing scheme
[19:59:27] @Frew : I dont think that is worth $300 TBH
[19:59:34] Keating : it's not Frew
[19:59:52] @AndrewD : MarkG: Is your alternative method "transferable and accessible" ?
[19:59:53] @dcrafti : I think they'd both cost more, being the traditional players.
[19:59:56] Keating : I don't agree with using Excel long term, but I don't agree with spending $300 on something we aren't using
[20:00:05] Keating : dcrafti: MYOB own Xero now
[20:00:11] @AndrewD : MarkG: Like, can you send a file to the right person?
[20:00:17] @MarkG : sure, I can share the financial records with anyone who wishes to see them
[20:00:21] @dcrafti : Since when? Xero is public
[20:00:37] @AndrewD : Why are we making this hard?
[20:00:52] @AndrewD : Delegation people
[20:01:03] Keating : hmm they must do their on prem stuff dcrafti
[20:01:34] @Fletcher : Why don't we scrap Xero now, let the treasury use whatever homebrew stuff they want for the next few months while they look for a solution they prefer?
[20:01:34] Keating : AndrewD: there's a concern that using an internal record keeping system isn't scalable or transparant
[20:01:36] @dcrafti : Keating, that's not meant to sound combative, btw. I've got several friends who work at Xero and haven't heard about it.
[20:01:46] Keating : oh of course dcrafti
[20:01:47] @Frew : Works for me Fletcher
[20:01:56] Keating : I just saw MYOB Xero on prem and thought WTF
[20:02:08] Keating : yes Fletcher
[20:02:33] Keating : dcrafti: my bad, it was Exo I was thinking of
[20:02:36] @MarkG : let's re-iterate that there's been zero demand for the "transparent and scalable" features of xero, and it's cost us nearly $1200 over the time we've used it
[20:03:05] @MarkG : we're paying a lot for abstract purity on a point of principle
[20:03:31] @Fletcher : Proposed motion text: Direct the Treasury to discontinue use of Xero, make use of homebrew solutions and present the NC with an alternative within 2 months.
[20:03:32] @dcrafti : OK, how about a Google doc, which at least has revision control?
[20:03:36] @MarkG : it'll be better to spend on recruitment and growing the party
[20:03:43] @Frew : !motion Stop using Xero for financial reporting due to cost and lack of utility
[20:03:45] @Frew : Sould good?
[20:03:45] @Rundll : I'm against this motion
[20:03:49] @Frew : sound
[20:04:01] @AndrewD : I'm ok withit
[20:04:02] @Rundll : Defer for two weeks, do some research and come back with a proposal
[20:04:07] @Fletcher : No objections here AndrewD
[20:04:14] @Fletcher : wait, *Frew
[20:04:27] Keating : we do need to put the by line about researching options
  • See motions
  • Note: due to an error in MotionBot the motion was incorrectly reported as having carried. (Relative majority was used instead of absolute)
[20:05:05] @dcrafti : I'd prefer to have something to move to before cancelling. There'll be a data export/import requirement as well.
[20:05:10] @MarkG : srsly ?
[20:05:23] @dcrafti : nay
[20:05:33] @AndrewD : Let the treasureer do his job
[20:05:45] Keating : additional motion to review the use of an external account keeping system for the party to use in the future
[20:06:19] Keating : I'm happy to let Xero slide, but we should look at something better than a pen and paper system for our accounts
[20:06:21] @CAPT-Irrelevant : I'm only saying abstain as I don't yet fully understand the whole picture of what's at stake.
[20:06:26] @AndrewD : Leave out the word "external"
[20:06:28] @Frew : !motion investigate alternative financial systems for future use of the Party
[20:06:33] @Frew : Sound good?
[20:06:37] @AndrewD : Better
[20:06:38] Keating : within 6 months?
[20:06:52] @Fletcher : Same here CAPT-Irrelevant, I don't have the requisite experience to make a decision
[20:07:15] @MarkG : I have the requisite experience
[20:07:20] @dcrafti : This new motion doesn't need relevant experience.
[20:07:26] @Frew : !motion Investigate alternative financial systems for future use of the party with the aim to report back within 6 months
[20:07:30] @Frew : better?
[20:07:34] @dcrafti : Yep
[20:07:36] Keating : I'm happy with that
[20:07:39] @AndrewD : fine
  • See motions
[20:08:31] @MarkG : poor use of money
[20:08:38] @dcrafti : MarkG, if you report back in a week with a solution, we can effectively stop as soon as it's all ready.
[20:08:47] @Fletcher : MarkG, what exactly is your objection to the above motion?
[20:09:19] @AndrewD : Well, actually, it doesn't say who will investigate
[20:09:26] @Frew : maybe the solution is Treasurer uses spreadsheet
[20:09:27] @AndrewD : I assumed MarkG
[20:10:05] @AndrewD : He will probably investigate and say No
[20:10:06] @dcrafti : A spreadsheet with revision control that is shareable should be fine
[20:10:21] @Fletcher : Any other comments/questions before we move on?
[20:10:36] @dcrafti : i.e. Google sheets
[20:10:47] @Fletcher : (We have one more item and motion to address)
[20:11:01] @Fletcher : * two items, one motion
[20:11:44] @Rundll : hold up
[20:11:48] @MarkG : coz we already deferred a decision once, and we're voting to waste money
[20:12:02] @Fletcher : MarkG, we've already voted to kill Xero?
[20:12:12] @MarkG : didn't it lapse?
[20:12:20] Keating : no
[20:12:22] @AndrewD : no
[20:12:26] @Rundll : yes
[20:12:32] Keating : Abstainsions != nays
[20:12:36] @MarkG : 3 ayes?
[20:12:44] @Frew : passed
[20:12:48] @CAPT-Irrelevant : 3 aye, 1 nay, 3 abstain
[20:12:56] @dcrafti : 2 nays if mine can be counted
[20:13:22] @Rundll : 3.1(3) "All motions must be carried by an absolute two-thirds majority of the National Council"
[20:13:34] Keating : yep
[20:13:40] @Fletcher : One half (1/2), ignoring the remainder, plus one (1) of all members who have the right to vote on the motion must vote in favour of the motion for it to carry. For the purposes of this type of majority, abstaining is equivalent to voting against the motion.
[20:13:42] @Rundll : Absolute two-thirds majority "For the purposes of this type of majority, abstaining is equivalent to voting against the motion"
[20:13:54] @Fletcher : so yeah, lapsed.
[20:14:04] Keating : oh
[20:14:04] Keating : well
[20:15:19] @Fletcher : In light of the clarification of the procedure of NC votes I propose we revist the motion to kill Xero.
[20:15:37] @Frew : sure
[20:15:39] @AndrewD : Sure. Brief discussion though
[20:15:41] @Rundll : agreed, lets fix the last motion we passed, I want MarkG's advice, just not in the dieing minutes of a meeting...
[20:15:46] Keating : my abstainion was based on not adding a part to revisit the use of an alterntive accoutning solution where appropriate
[20:15:53] @Rundll : and I care not for another two weeks being charged for xero
[20:15:55] @dcrafti : Doesn't the second motion lay out a better procedure to kill Xero?
[20:16:02] Keating : ^^
[20:16:11] @Rundll : yes
[20:16:17] @Rundll : but MarkG voted against it
[20:16:21] @AndrewD : Well, MarkG just came to us with his recommendation
[20:16:26] @AndrewD : and we ignored it
[20:16:36] @Frew : I got the impression we didnt pay it on a weekly basis
[20:16:45] @CAPT-Irrelevant : My understanding is that the vote to look for an alternative is not surefire.
[20:16:51] @CAPT-Irrelevant : Simply to open the opportunity to look for one.
[20:16:53] @Rundll : might trigger again between now and then Frew
[20:16:53] @dcrafti : What was the recommendation of a system to use in place of Xero? I must have missed it.
[20:16:58] @Fletcher : That is my understanding too CAPT-Irrelevant
[20:17:10] @Fletcher : The second motion (to my understanding) does not kill the use of Xero.
[20:17:15] @CAPT-Irrelevant : We never agreed to commit to a replacement.
[20:17:53] @dcrafti : The second one doesn't commit to anything, but we'll surely vote yes if we've got a good replacement
[20:17:57] Keating : shall we defer this to the next NC meeting then?
[20:18:02] @AndrewD : MarkG: How much investigation did you already do, prior to coming here and making this recommendation?
[20:18:32] @CAPT-Irrelevant : My abstain and aye votes were not intended to go against MarkG's advice, despite my being Deputy.
[20:18:52] @Fletcher : ^
[20:18:59] @Fletcher : minus the deputy part
[20:19:36] Keating : funnily mine was in agreeance with MarkG on the proviso we at least look at an alternative
[20:19:59] @Fletcher : If no one else wishes to speak on it I propose we revote on "Stop using Xero for financial reporting due to cost and lack of utility" keeping in mind that the NC has already committed to looking for an alternative.
[20:20:12] @Frew : sounds good to me
[20:20:17] Keating : sounds good Fletcher
[20:20:20] @Fletcher : Also keeping in mind that for the purposes of this vote an abstain is a nay.
[20:20:23] @MarkG : I know a bit about some of the alternative packages, but the main thing to bear in mind is that there's no practical demand for the features we keep bringing up
[20:20:23] @Fletcher : !motion Stop using Xero for financial reporting due to cost and lack of utility
[20:20:23] @AndrewD : Specify that MarkG is doing the investigation
[20:20:24] @CAPT-Irrelevant : Should we clarify on when?
[20:20:25] @Rundll : I'm still against the motion :)
  • See motions
  • Additional comments:
    • Peter Fulton: My additional thoughts is that there's no solid when.
    • Michael Keating: I would much prefer to have a system that is easily available for multiple people to be able to access and used, allowing redundancies in process and procedure, but given the financials in keeping that going, I think its worth leaving it and looking at it later

NSW Fair Trading

  • NSW Fair Trading has reached out to our public officer regarding our lack of compliance filing documents with them.
  • We're required to file yearly financial reports and we haven't been.
  • It appears that the reason we're only seriously finding out about this now is due to a lack of auditing
  • Mark is gathering financial information for submission
  • While the consequences are severe Rundll and Fletcher are confident that this is a problem that can be overcome. Their plan is to submit the financial declarations for the past several years as a starting point and reach out to NSW FT with a plan to assure future compliance.
  • See motions

General Business

Vacation

  • Tom is going to NZ for several weeks, will remain in contact


Motions

  • MOTION: Accept the minutes for 2016-08-11 as written
    • Put by: Fletcher Boyd
    • Ayes: 5 (Fletcher Boyd, Mark Gibbons, Thomas Randle, Peter Fulton, Simon Frew, Andrew Downing); Nays: 0 (); Abstains: 1 (Michael Keating)
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: Abolish the Congress Review Committee, the Internet Engineering Committee, and the Party Constitution Review Committee
    • Put by: Simon Frew
    • Ayes: 7 (Simon Frew, Thomas Randle, Mark Gibbons, Fletcher Boyd, Andrew Downing, Peter Fulton, Michale Keating); Nays: 0 (); Abstains: 0 ()
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: Adopt the amendments to the By-laws, National Council Resolutions, Charter of Responsibilities, IRC Code of Conduct, Authorisation Processes and National Congress Standing Orders as written.
    • Put by: Fletcher Boyd
    • Ayes: 7 (Mark Gibbons, Fletcher Boyd, Simon Frew, Michael Keating, Andrew Downing, Thomas Randle, Peter Fulton); Nays: 0 (); Abstains: 0 ()
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: Adopt the proposed 'National Council Resolution 2016-1 — Internal groups' as written
    • Put by: Fletcher Boyd
    • Ayes: 7 (Mark Gibbons, Simon Frew, Fletcher Boyd, Thomas Randle, Michael Keating, Peter Fulton, Andrew Downing); Nays: 0 (); Abstains: 0 ()
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: Adopt the proposed Terms of Reference Standard as written
    • Put by: Fletcher Boyd
    • Ayes: 7 (Simon Frew, Thomas Randle, Fletcher Boyd, Mark Gibbons, Peter Fulton, Andrew Downing, Michael Keating); Nays: 0 (); Abstains: 0 ()
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: Adpot the amendments to the Election Committee, Internal Elections Working Group, International Relations Team, Policy Development Committee and Programming Team terms of reference as written.
    • Put by: Fletcher Boyd
    • Ayes: 7 (Thomas Randle, Fletcher Boyd, Andrew Downing, Simon Frew, Mark Gibbons, Peter Fulton, Michael Keating); Nays: 0 (); Abstains: 0 ()
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: Reimburse Fletcher $21.53 for the 2016 Congress Eventbrite fees
    • Put by: Fletcher Boyd
    • Ayes: 5 (Mark Gibbons, Andrew Downing, Simon Frew, Peter Fulton, Thomas Randle); Nays: 0 (); Abstains: 1 (Fletcher)
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: Stop using Xero for financial reporting due to cost and lack of utility
    • Put by: Simon Frew
    • Ayes: 3 (Andrew Downing, Simon Frew, Mark Gibbons); Nays: 2 (Thomas Randle, David Crafti); Abstains: 4 (Michael Keating, Peter Fulton, Fletcher Boyd)
      • Motion lapses.
  • MOTION: Investigate alternative financial systems for future use of the party with the aim to report back within 6 months
    • Put by: Simon Frew
    • Ayes: 7 (Simon Frew, Michael Keating, Andrew Downing, David Crafti, Peter Fulton, Fletcher Boyd, Thomas Randle); Nays: 1 (MarkG); Abstains: 0 ()
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: Stop using Xero for financial reporting due to cost and lack of utility
    • Put by: Fletcher Boyd
    • Ayes: 6 (Michael Keating, Fletcher Boyd, Mark Gibbons, Andrew Downing, Peter Fulton, Simon Frew); Nays: 1 (Thomas Randle); Abstains: 1 (David Crafti)
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: The National Council reaffirms David Campbells position as Public Officer of Pirate Party Australia Incorporated and directs him to work with the party secretariat to resolve the complaint by NSW Fair Trading
    • Put by: Fletcher Boyd
    • Ayes: 8 (Andrew Downing, Fletcher Boyd, Thomas Randle, Michael Keating, Simon Frew, David Crafti, Peter Fulton); Nays: 0 (); Abstains: 0 ()
      • Motion carries.
  • MOTION: Close meeting now
    • Put by: Simon Frew
    • Ayes: 7 (Fletcher Boyd, Simon Frew, Andrew Downing, David Crafti, Michael Keating, Thomas Randle, Peter Fulton); Nays: 0 (); Abstains: 0 ()
      • Motion carries.

Action Items

  • Fletcher to draft an amendment to modify the character assessment and disclosure requirements of By-law 2013-02 to put the background check before the ballot
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