Pirate Congress 2022/Minutes/Log

Meeting Minutes This document is a record of a meeting. Do not edit this document without contacting the relevant group first.

Meeting Log This page contains a transcript or log of a meeting that occurred on the 23rd and 24th of July 2022. It should be used for reference only and does not need to be edited.

This is Alex Jago's log of the IRC chat for Congress 2022. Please note that all log times are in UTC+8:00, but the main time for Congress was AEST, which is UTC+10:00.

This log may be referred to in conjunction with recordings of the live stream:

• Saturday 23rd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-7WLl99xtc
• Sunday 24th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YWXfhf2FF8

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##### Congress Day 1 commences formally at 10:00 AEST, 23rd July 2022.    #####
##### Please note that log times are in UTC+8, two hours behind AEST      #####
##### Further note that this Congress featured discussion on both Discord #####
##### (marked with /D) and IRC. This log is taken from the IRC side.      #####
###############################################################################

----- START OF CONGRESS -----
---- Start of Saturday ----
08:00 < Steven/D> Still on the landing page for the livestream correct?
08:03 < alexjago/D> yep
08:05 <~alexjago> seems to be coming through OK on YouTube
08:06 < Miles/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2022/Agenda
08:11 < alexjago/D> no, for I have 5 other things to do
08:13 < Miles/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/National_Congress_Standing_Orders
08:14 < alexjago/D> We will need to make two amendments to SO:
08:14 < alexjago/D> 1) to allow all PMs that were submitted prior to the opening of Congress
08:14 < alexjago/D> 2) to allow all nominations up to the start of the relevant session
08:15 < JohnA/D> It's turtles all the way down,
08:16 < JohnA/D> It's turtles all the way down. (edited)
08:18 < JohnA/D> "Policy on the run" is a criticism you selectively apply to things you don't like.
08:19 <~alexjago> Discord and IRC ;)
08:19 < alexjago/D> MOTION: amend the Standing Orders, for this Congress only, to allow considerations of all policy motions published prior to the start of Congress and to allow nominations for electable positions to be received up to the start of the relevant session.
08:20 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
08:20 < Miles/D> start  votes
08:20 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
08:20 < Satch/D> Aye
08:20 < Miles/D> i vote aye
08:20 < JohnA/D> aye
08:20 < mandrke/D> aye
08:20 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
08:20 < Simon/D> aye
08:20 < DanielT/D> aye
08:20 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
08:20 < Gold/D> Aye
08:20 < alexjago/D> Aye
08:21 < alexjago/D> 3 minutes is traditional
08:21 < Miles/D> stop voting
08:21 < Miles/D> MOTION:  adopt standing orders as amended
08:21 < Miles/D> start voting
08:22 < Miles/D> i vote aye
08:22 < Satch/D> Aye
08:22 < JohnA/D> aye
08:22 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
08:22 < mandrke/D> aye
08:22 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
08:22 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
08:22 < Simon/D> aye
08:22 < DanielT/D> Aye
08:23 < JohnA/D> I would suggest that for procedural motions the chair can speed up resolution.
08:23 < alexjago/D> Aye
08:23 < Miles/D> stop voting
08:37 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Thanks Miles!
08:45 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Thanks Alex!
08:47 < Miles/D> MOTION:  adjourn for 10 minute break
08:47 < Miles/D> start voting
08:47 < Miles/D> i vote aye
08:47 < alexjago/D> aye
08:47 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
08:47 < JayStephens/D> aye
08:47 <+jedb> aye
08:47 < Satch/D> Aye
08:47 < mandrke/D> aye
08:47 < JohnA/D> aye
08:47 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
08:47 < DanielT/D> aye
08:47 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
08:48 < Gold/D> Aye
08:49 < Miles/D> close voting
08:49 < Steven/D> Miles you were comparably quiet compared to Alex
08:49 < Miles/D> see you in 10
08:50 < alexjago/D> my microphone is at my chin 
09:00 < Miles/D> resuming shortly
09:00 < Sean-O-/D> How long until elections start?
09:00 <~alexjago> Elections are tomorrow
09:00 <~alexjago> but we'll have policy and constitutional motions today
09:01 < alexjago/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/File:Treasurers-report-2022.pdf
09:07 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Thanks John. 
09:07 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Looks in order
09:07 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Definitely fundraising needed
09:08 < Gold/D> Does bunnings allow political parties?
09:08 < milspec/D> Good on you John A!
09:09 < alexjago/D> I've never seen tem
09:09 < Satch/D> Any non-profit organisations? Oh, ok
09:11 < milspec/D> Thoughts on a membership fee? Maybe some sort of two tier membership (paid and unpaid)?
09:11 < alexjago/D> Membership of PPAU is pay-what-you-can
09:13 < Gold/D> I would say for the last election, attracting more members by being free was more important in order to continue being registered, rather than making money.
09:13 < milspec/D> As a member, it would be nice to have a mental goal for the donation to know what is the expected level. Even if it's not compulsory.
09:13 < Steven/D> ^
09:14 < alexjago/D> OK, a suggested amount
09:15 < alexjago/D> yeah important to keep in mind that tax-deductible donations to the party are only possible via Fusion
09:16 < Gimmeadrink/D> How is Fusions budget doled out to the branches?
09:17 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> There is currently no process for this, but is currently being worked out.
09:18 < mandrke/D> Has everyone has a chance to read the report?
09:19 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> Thanks John
09:19 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> *cheers*
09:19 < alexjago/D> fundamentally, we just need a method for people to be able to donate to PPAU via Fusion
09:20 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Thanks John
09:20 < Steven/D> Would they agree?
09:22 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> It is the current purpose of Fusion as an association to support their branches, so Fusion does have - to a degree - an obligation here (IMO). It's now a matter of formalising a policy on how this is done which is in progress.
09:25 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Thanks Andrew!
09:25 < milspec/D> Thanks for your leadership of the Policy Dev Committee, Andrew :tapebones:
09:26 < Steven/D> thanks!
09:27 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> polite arguing
09:27 < milspec/D> "Deliberation"
09:32 < mandrke/D> Jay, Did I spell your name correctly?
09:35 < maus/D> what about a policy position on our relations with the USA?
09:35 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> I enjoyed watching the Pirate Party MEPs during the EU taxonomy debate
09:36 < zach__/D> What are the benefits and obligations of pirates international?
09:37 < JohnA/D> maus: we do have some general comments at - https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Platform#Foreign_policy
09:39 < zach__/D> Libertarian position can also be to safeguard the life of the baby. This isnt in the pirate purview
09:39 < alexjago/D> The Pirate position on abortion has been set for, like, a decade
09:39 < Satch/D> There's no abortion services in Tasmania, so they have to travel to Victoria to access.
09:40 < andrewdpirate/D> Curiously, abortion legislation in Australia operates at a state level, as it now does in USA.
09:41 < Satch/D> Yes, we have no federal mandate either
09:41 < JohnA/D> I emphasise "wanted fetus" in other contexts - https://johnaugust.com.au/article/zoes-law-different-perspective
09:41 <+jedb> nothing really wrong with it operating at a state level; health policy is usually state in AU
09:42 < andrewdpirate/D> The effect has mostly been that different states have varied marginally, but they're overall quite similar.
09:42 < Satch/D> The issue in the US is that the bible belt states will default to criminalising most abortion. Much like the federal mandate to outlaw slavery, many of the same states wanted to keep the practice.
09:44 < andrewdpirate/D> I expect the USA states will end up drifting toward some middle ground in the longer term, even if initially they're often quite far apart.
09:45 < andrewdpirate/D> It's a political football just now, so lots of reactionary nonsense bouncing around, but reality needs to take hold eventually.
09:45 < alexjago/D> we have a position, long-held
09:45 <+jedb> alexjago: there are precisely two mentions of the word "abortion" currently in the platform
09:45 < alexjago/D> > Pirate Party Australia supports reproductive rights. A pro-choice position is also not a commentary on the value of life: rather, it is recognition that individuals are better placed than governments to weigh up complex questions in light of their own circumstances and values.
09:45 < alexjago/D> > Extend protections within the Victorian Abortion Law Reform Act 2008 nationwide, to provide baseline legal abortion services nationwide.
09:46 < JohnA/D> u beat me to it!
09:46 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Push Ze Germans to keep their nuclear plants open
09:46 <+jedb> reproductive rights in general is a segment of policy we could possibly expand on in future (although obviously not right this instant)
09:47 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Thanks Jay!
09:47 < andrewdpirate/D> Also in our "Bill of rights" policy: "The right to control your body and health, including the right to terminate a pregnancy."
09:48 < Satch/D> It's really a question of what should be considered a universal human right, and enforced nationally, vs what should be left up to regional democracy.
09:48 < alexjago/D> motion to accept the report
09:49 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
09:49 < JayStephens/D> aye
09:49 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> wait
09:49 < alexjago/D> MOTION: accept the President's, Secretary's, Treasurer's, Policy Development Officer's and International Relations Officer's reports 'en banc'.
09:50 < Satch/D> Aye
09:50 < JohnA/D> aye
09:50 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
09:50 < Miles/D> hold votes
09:50 < alexjago/D> Aye
09:51 < alexjago/D> * MOTION: accept the Financial Report as presented by the Treasurer.
09:51 < maus/D> abstain
09:51 < JohnA/D> abstain
09:51 < JayStephens/D> aye
09:51 < Miles/D> start votes
09:51 < Miles/D> i vote ay
09:51 < Satch/D> Aye
09:51 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
09:51 <+jedb> aye
09:51 < mandrke/D> aye
09:51 < DanielT/D> aye
09:51 < zach__/D> aye
09:51 < maus/D> abstain
09:51 < Gimmeadrink/D> Aye
09:51 < alexjago/D> Aye
09:51 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
09:51 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
09:52 < milspec/D> Aye
09:52 < Gold/D> Aye
09:54 < Miles/D> close voting
09:54 < alexjago/D> MOTION: accept the President's, Secretary's, Policy Development Officer's and International Relations Officer's reports 'en banc'.
09:54 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> @alexjago , can you define "en banc"
09:55 < maus/D> what does 'en banc' mean?
09:55 < mandrke/D> as a block
09:55 < alexjago/D> 'en banc': as a block
09:55 <+jedb> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/en%20banc
09:55 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Stop trying to be fancy 
09:55 < Gold/D> Where are the other reports?
09:55 < alexjago/D> MOTION: accept the President's, Secretary's, Policy Development Officer's and International Relations Officer's reports as a block.
09:55 < Satch/D> Literally 'on the bench', as in any motions currently being considered.
09:56 < Gold/D> I should've been listening in a bit more carefully
09:56 < Miles/D> start voting
09:56 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
09:56 < Miles/D> i vote aye
09:56 < JohnA/D> aye
09:56 < mandrke/D> aye
09:56 <+jedb> aye
09:56 < Satch/D> Aye
09:56 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
09:56 < DanielT/D> aye
09:57 < Gold/D> Abstain
09:57 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
09:57 < alexjago/D> Abstain (because my motion)
09:57 < maus/D> abstain
09:57 < zach__/D> abstain
09:57 < milspec/D> Aye
09:57 < Gimmeadrink/D> Abstain (I missed the first reports...)
09:57 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> 10 ayes, 5 abstain
09:58 < maus/D> abstain (I only caught the end) (edited)
09:58 < mandrke/D> actually "as a group" might have been more easily understood
09:58 < Miles/D> close voting
09:59 < alexjago/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2022/Motions#CAP-1:_Casual_Vacancies
10:03 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> I am happy to move to a vote
10:04 < Gimmeadrink/D> 'may opt', does that mean majority vote?
10:06 < alexjago/D> "may opt": the NC can choose in the same way tha it makes other decisions
10:07 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> This would be particularly the case for "deputy" roles, where it's not the primary office role
10:09 < alexjago/D> MOTION: approve CAP-1 "Casual Vacancies".
10:09 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
10:09 < Satch/D> Aye
10:09 < Miles/D> start voting
10:09 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
10:09 < Gimmeadrink/D> Aye
10:09 < Gold/D> Aye
10:09 < zach__/D> aye
10:09 < DanielT/D> Aye
10:09 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
10:09 < mandrke/D> aye
10:09 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
10:09 <+jedb> aye
10:09 < milspec/D> Aye
10:09 < alexjago/D> Aye
10:10 < Satch/D> Aye
10:10 < maus/D> aye
10:10 < JayStephens/D> aye
10:10 < JohnA/D> aye
10:10 < Sean-O-/D> aye
10:10 < mandrke/D> Miles: and there was a vote count bot...
10:11 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> One day we will be such a big party a vote count bot will be essential
10:11 < zach__/D> I believe the 'originalist' position is referring to the meaning behind the words, not a disregard for amendments
10:12 < mandrke/D> yes, that is true
10:12 < Miles/D> stop voting
10:12 < Simon/D> aye
10:13 < Miles/D> MOTION:  break for lunch (1 hour)
10:13 < Miles/D> start votes
10:13 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> nay
10:13 < Miles/D> i vote aye
10:13 < Satch/D> Aye
10:13 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
10:13 < Gold/D> Aye
10:13 < JayStephens/D> aye
10:13 < mandrke/D> aye
10:13 < DanielT/D> Aye
10:13 < Gimmeadrink/D> Aye
10:13 <+jedb> aye
10:13 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
10:13 < maus/D> aye
10:13 < JohnA/D> aye
10:13 < alexjago/D> Aye
10:14 < milspec/D> Abstain (not lunch time in Perth  )
10:14 < Simon/D> aye
10:14 <+jedb> milspec: technically a little past lunch time for me
10:15 < andrewdpirate/D> You can have brunch
10:15 < Gimmeadrink/D> Extended smoko
10:16 < Miles/D> close voting
10:16 < mandrke/D> I wonder how an originalist handles the 27th amendment... As part of the Bill of Rights (as that is when it was drafted,) or as people in the 80's as that is when it was actually passed...
10:16 <+jedb> spicy? nonsense
10:16 < Miles/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2022/Motions
10:16 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Please put that we are on break for an hour in the youtube chat
10:17 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> for people that might stumble onto the stream

----- Saturday Lunch -----

10:18 < Miles/D> itime to touch grasss
10:42 < Gold/D> I'll have to tune out in about an hour to hang my clothes on the line
11:20 < Miles/D> ok are we ready to resume
11:23 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> There is some weird audio noise that sounds like a pigeon or a heartbeat
11:23 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Andrew sounds louder than Miles on the stream.
11:24 < Steven/D> Miles has been consistently quiet
11:24 < Steven/D> can Miles be boosted?
11:24 < Steven/D> Miles has been consistently quiet compared to other members (edited)
11:24 <+jedb> Tyrone-D-Lisle: oh god, now I can't unhear that
11:24 <+jedb> damn pigeons
11:29 <+jedb> if you consider the 50% discounted CGT rate as the real rate, the higher rate in the first year could have been there to tax excessive speculation and quick flipping of large assets, but that is pure speculation on my part
11:31 < Morton/D> Thats what I thought it was meant to prevent
11:33 < alexjago/D> two minor fixes:
11:33 < alexjago/D> "As per current Capital Gains_s_ Tax law"
11:33 < alexjago/D> "On Asset use to secure debt"
11:35 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> yes, except it is a real discount ... not the real rate. The alternative could be to charge 200% if in the first 12 months, as opposed to charging 50% after the first 12 months.
11:36 < milspec/D> Really love this policy. I would love to see us go a bit harder on gifts/inheritance as well as a cap on PPOR CGT exemption, but happy to leave that fight for another day.
11:36 < Morton/D> That is essentially just doubling current CGT, would be hard to get approval and the media would spin it as such
11:37 < Morton/D> That is essentially just doubling current CGT, would be hard to get public approval and the media would spin it as such (edited)
11:37 < zach__/D> This change would be an increase in tax. An associated reduction in income tax would be nice, but not part of the scope of policy since that is covered elsewhere
11:37 < milspec/D> Agreed, Miles
11:37 < Gold/D> I wouldn't want to see people having christmas/birthday presents taxed. A gift tax shouldn't affect the ordinary population
11:37 < Miles/D> @JayStephens
11:38 < Gold/D> However if you're gifting million dollar assets to your children, that's something else.
11:39 < JayStephens/D> as per others above - I'm in favour of the change that keeps the discount after 12 months but doubles the rate
11:39 < zach__/D> If the CGT obligation is transferred with the gift, it shouldnt be a problem
11:40 < Gold/D> To what andrew is saying, I think a land tax is a better idea than taxing inheritance of a family home.
11:40 < Morton/D> I know cases (a few friends) of parents that have gifted anywhere from 10k-100k towards a house deposit, but when asked by the bank claim it as a "gift" even though they expect it to be payed back. As if the bank sees it as a loan the deposit would be rejected
11:40 < alexjago/D> @MelissaT in here
11:41 < Satch/D> Intergenerational wealth is a driving contributor to wealth inequality, but I agree it can't be tackled easily through inheritance tax.
11:41 < milspec/D> The current tax system, as unfair as it is, does reset the CGT obligation on inheritance
11:41 < DanielT/D> this policy does not affect family trusts? only actual assets?
11:42 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> I was just about to ask this. So is that what happens now?
11:42 < Gold/D> Yep, which is why I like to bring it up a lot here as I like the idea and we already support it
11:42 < milspec/D> I think it needs to align with taxes on labour. Not discounted.
11:44 < milspec/D> There are some complicated caveats, but yes, that's my understanding
11:44 < DanielT/D> agreed, quite a complex area to go into
11:44 < milspec/D> The trust tax dodge problem goes away if we go to a flat tax
11:46 < JayStephens/D> if we double it, then it aligns after the discount.
11:46 < milspec/D> Trusts allow people to minimise tax by shifting income across people and across time. If the tax rate is flat, that benefit goes away
11:47 < alexjago/D> I for one would love 9 news to spend an hour raging about our CGT policy
11:47 < milspec/D> If we want to sell this tax rise, we can sell it as a way to fund the UBI/flat tax
11:48 <+jedb> milspec: nah, you sell it as part of measures to fix the out of control housing market
11:49 < Morton/D> Question: What are your thoughts that removing the 50% CGT would result in mass selling of assets before the date that the increased CGT is implemented? And what measures could you take to prevent that
11:49 < alexjago/D> retaining the CGT basis just treats "inheriting your parent's  house" the same as if your parent had sold their house shortly before they died
11:49 < alexjago/D> better for the market to shake out rapidly
11:49 < Satch/D> That will be a problem if property values drop, if their equity is higher than the actual value.
11:53 < Satch/D> Promote market fluidity, yes.
11:54 < milspec/D> Should we phase it in over time to reduce shock?
11:54 < Gold/D> I agree that a slow transition would be more fair, but would something like that just get changed in a next election
11:55 < Morton/D> That makes sense, thank you.
11:55 < zach__/D> Land tax does reduce the desirability of ownership
11:56 < JohnA/D> Hopefully leaving ownership that links to *real* growth as worthwhile.
11:56 < andrewdpirate/D> Motion: Adopt PM-1 Capital Gains Tax Reform as the new section 6.7 of the Economic Reform policy.
11:57 <+jedb> that's some loud keyboard clacking
11:57 < andrewdpirate/D> Thank you.
11:57 < Miles/D> start voting
11:57 < Miles/D> i vote aye
11:57 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
11:57 < alexjago/D> aye
11:57 < Satch/D> Aye
11:57 < Gold/D> Aye
11:57 < zach__/D> aye
11:57 <+jedb> aye
11:57 < mandrke/D> aye
11:57 < JohnA/D> aye
11:57 < milspec/D> Aye
11:57 <+Deadbeat> Abstain
11:57 < Gimmeadrink/D> Aye
11:57 < maus/D> abstain
11:57 < DanielT/D> aye
11:57 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
11:57 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> abstain
11:58 < Morton/D> aye
11:58 < Satch/D> I can't stop hearing those pigeons now, lol
11:58 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> I think it's Andrew's water cooling
11:59 < zach__/D> I find this a good policy for both anti and pro-tax folks
11:59 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Sounds like someone has a construction site next to them.
12:00 < andrewdpirate/D> Are you hearing it now?
12:00 < milspec/D> Someone killed the pigeon with a grinder
12:00 < Satch/D> lol 
12:00 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> nope, no more water pump/dying pigeons
12:00 < andrewdpirate/D> and now?
12:00 < Miles/D> close voting
12:00 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> and its back
12:00 < Satch/D> pigeons again, lol
12:01 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> @alexjago , are you minuting the pigeons?
12:01 < Gold/D> Ughh, I was calling you Tyler all of yesterday, wasn't I?
12:02 < Satch/D> You're coming through on the stream
12:03 < andrewdpirate/D> They're demanding a cooo
12:04 < JohnA/D> My writings on Nuclear Power from back in times of howard : https://johnaugust.com.au/article/nuclear-power-age-howard
12:07 < Gold/D> How long are we planning to remove taxes on EVs? I agree with all the rest of your points, but that point is a big one for me
12:07 <+jedb> QUESTION: in the third paragraph, would be it better to replace "have the most known uranium" with "have very high known uranium and thorium reserves"?
12:07 < milspec/D> Question: love the carbon tax, but why remove GST on energy?
12:07 < JohnA/D> Am keen to speak on whole issue.
12:07 < mandrke/D> Isn't motly just Tesla, and Type 2 (Mennekes)?
12:08 < milspec/D> Question: how do we get electric vehicle owners to contribute to the cost of road maintenance and construction?
12:08 < Satch/D> EVs still require registration
12:08 <+jedb> QUESTION: in the third reform point, what is meant by "food additives to reduce farm emissions"?
12:09 < andrewdpirate/D> Seaweed derivative to reduce methane emissions in cow burps.
12:09 < zach__/D> Scientific consensus shows the climate is changing, but its not quite a clear concensus that it will be costly or worse for human outcomes, nor that its the govt's job to fix it. Sounds more like activists than scientists
12:09 < mandrke/D> Don't most Australian models use Type 2 (Mennekes)? (edited)
12:09 < alexjago/D> I can update
12:11 < milspec/D> Question: do we need to retain prohibition on uranium processing to the level of highly enriched uranium (ie. Weapons grade)?
12:11 <+jedb> zach__: if there is consensus that sea levels are rising to any significant extent due to changing climate, that in itself is enough to conclude it is costly and worse for human outcomes
12:11 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> More people in Norway are in favour of cutting EV benefits for luxury/expensive EVs
12:11 <+jedb> milspec: re:enrichment that's a very good question
12:11 < Gold/D> That's even subsidised for EVs currently too
12:11 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Yes. We would still need to meet our international treaty obligations on non proliferation.
12:12 < zach__/D> @jedb, rising sea levels arent gonna kill people. Theyll just move
12:12 < andrewdpirate/D> To be clear, pro-nuclear policy from PPAU will be strongly opposed by some other branches in Fusion.
12:12 <+jedb> zach__: indeed, move a whole bunch of massive cities, very costly
12:12 < zach__/D> Build sea walls
12:12 < alexjago/D> ... and strongly supported by others
12:13 < Morton/D> There was an appropriate post in #ID:576352670768431111 recently that comes to mind
12:13 <+jedb> andrewdpirate: I know it will be strongly opposed by some other branches in fusion, but imo that is a feature not a bug
12:13 < Satch/D> We don't need nuclear power in Australia, but we should be onboard with the research. As a major exporter of uranium anyway, it would be great to export our expertise and technology alongside the raw mineral.
12:13 <+jedb> annoying those who aren't evidence-based is a good thing(tm)
12:15 < maus/D> anti-nuclear positions can be evidence-based just as much
12:15 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> https://essentialvision.com.au/support-for-nuclear-energy-in-australia
12:15 < Morton/D> Question: Is there any preference towards the type of reactors that are used? E.G heavy vs light water? Or not really
12:16 < Gimmeadrink/D> Quick question, do you see the role of ARPANSA (rad protection and nuclear safety agency) expanding if the prohibition is repealed, or would their need to be a dedicated regulator?
12:16 < Gimmeadrink/D> Quick question, do you see the role of ARPANSA (rad protection and nuclear safety agency) expanding if the prohibition is repealed, or would thereneed to be a dedicated regulator? (edited)
12:17 < Gimmeadrink/D> Quick question, do you see the role of ARPANSA (rad protection and nuclear safety agency) expanding if the prohibition is repealed, or would there need to be a dedicated regulator? (edited)
12:17 < andrewdpirate/D> It isn't just remove GST on energy. It's replace it with a carbon price, presumably to drive the transition
12:18 <+jedb> maus: when you have evidence to refute deaths-per-TWh and GHG emissions measurements for nuclear power then I'll take you more seriously
12:18 < Gold/D> Doesn't your policy to remove taxes on EVs mean that it is not an option at all?
12:18 < milspec/D> Thanks Tyrone  
12:19 < Gimmeadrink/D> https://www.csiro.au/en/research/animals/livestock/FutureFeed
12:20 < JohnA/D> That's broken down by age &c. but not party based voting intention.
12:22 < JohnA/D> ok, I'm corrected.
12:23 < Gimmeadrink/D> Ta Tyrone
12:23 < milspec/D> Amendment proposal: update point 2 to clarify that we are retaining prohibitions on weapons grade uranium processing and abiding by nuclear non proliferation
12:23 < Morton/D> Thank you
12:23 <+jedb> simply removing the prohibition may not even do anything for quite a long while
12:24 < alexjago/D> and note that we can import best practice regulation from the rest of the Anglosphere
12:25 <+jedb> alexjago: I'd prefer if we looked to France to take notes from first
12:25 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> add "retaining prohibitions on weapons grade uranium processing and abiding by nuclear non proliferation" to the end
12:26 < Gimmeadrink/D> *from other nations experiences.  It would be foolish to ignore the knowledge and experience from Japan and Korea, for example.
12:26 < JohnA/D> Yes they have nuclear reactors you can throttle - or are at least working on it
12:26 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> Q: What are the current taxes on EVs?
12:27 < alexjago/D> > Remove legislative prohibitions on the use of nuclear energy, nuclear fuel fabrication and reprocessing, and uranium mining, while retaining prohibitions on weapons-grade processing and abiding by nuclear non-proliferation agreements.
12:27 < Steven/D> Vic has one per miles @ state level
12:27 < Steven/D> Vic has one per km @ state level (edited)
12:28 < Satch/D> QLD has some nice incentives for EVs. https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/projects/electricvehicles/hitting-the-road
12:29 < mandrke/D> Luxury car tax... a road use tax (to 'replace fuel excise')
12:29 < milspec/D> If there was an international carbon price we could just match that
12:29 < Steven/D> Vic has one per km @ state level. 2.5c per km (edited)
12:31 < Gold/D> Maybe you should specify a target for example remove taxes until a percent of new car sales are EVs?
12:31 < Gimmeadrink/D> Fuel excise and luxury car taxes are national taxes though, while stamp duties, regos etc are state taxes.  Repealing the fed taxes aren't going to hugely affect the state budget for infrastructure.
12:31 < Morton/D> Question: What are thoughts on systems in other countries main cities such as England removing road tolls for electric vehicles. 100% petrol cars are charged the full toll, while hybrid pay less for the toll
12:31 < Morton/D> Question: What are thoughts on systems in other countries main cities such as London England removing road tolls for electric vehicles. 100% petrol cars are charged the full toll, while hybrid pay less for the toll (edited)
12:31 < andrewdpirate/D> As an odd factor with EV's, they have a higher upfront cost relative to their lifetime cost of ownership, so they're more likely to run into luxury taxes just based on purchase price, without actually being a luxury in comparison to a similar petrol vehicle.
12:32 < JayStephens/D> EV Policy area also links to possible revival of Australian Auto industry so it crosses a lot of policy areas
12:33 < milspec/D> Andrew, do you feel strongly about removing GST? I would suggest we leave gst
12:34 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> ! dose that included luxury EVS or the affordable ones like the Leaf?
12:34 <+jedb> Morton: in theory road tolls should be more about the space inefficiency of cars in general, so removing tolls for EVs is a little silly, but there are also tolls that are rather nonsensical anyway and only exist due to public-private-partnership nonsense
12:35 < Gold/D> I agree with splitting up the motions, I think that too much is being brought up to be voted on all at once
12:35 < JayStephens/D> Agree but again sensible to split long-term goals from not immediate short term climate focused incentives
12:35 < JayStephens/D> Agree but again sensible to split long-term goals from more immediate short term climate focused incentives (edited)
12:35 < Sean-O-/D> Pure mileage taxes as implemented in Victoria are dumb because they ignore the most critical element of road damage, which is weight:contact area ratio
12:35 < andrewdpirate/D> It's not a change to the policy. It's text carrying over from prior.
12:36 < Sean-O-/D> The fuel excise kinda works as a proxy for weight since heavier vehicles (which damage the road more) also burn more fuel
12:36 <+jedb> there have been policy motions in prior congresses that involve replacing policies to this level which had no problem
12:36 < milspec/D> Amendment proposal: remove the "Remove the GST on energy"?  
12:37 < milspec/D> Justification: What if GST is more than the carbon tax, we would be going backwards
12:37 < andrewdpirate/D> @Sorokyne PM-3  already separates the nuclear option
12:37 < alexjago/D> PM-3 is a broader position statement
12:38 < alexjago/D> It restates and expands on this PM's change re nuclear
12:39 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> To clarify, that isn't part of Tyrone's proposal
12:39 < JohnA/D> Road wear is proportional to the fourth power of the axle load. It does not recover costs.
12:40 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Roger saving the day
12:40 < milspec/D> Okay thanks for the clarification Roger. I'll withdraw
12:42 < alexjago/D> I favour splitting out the nuclear changes
12:43 < zach__/D> What amendments have been made to differ the expected motion from the wiki article?
12:43 < alexjago/D> the preamble text has been rewritten in a number of places
12:43 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> We've also done conditional motions before. So Given Tyrone's proposal doesn't affect the GST line, milspec could propose an additional policy amendment post-Tyrone's that just refers to the GST line.
12:44 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Original text is here: https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Platform#Climate_change_and_energy
12:44 < Gold/D> I feel as if milspec & miles raised some pretty good points about the nuclear proposals and I would like more work on the proposal to address those facts before voting aye, but I generally agree with it.
12:46 < alexjago/D> ugh normally what we do is decide between two competing versions of the text
12:46 < alexjago/D> I'm still figuring out the changes lol
12:47 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Motion to adopt PM-2 Climate Change and Energy update
12:47 < zach__/D> Was PM-2 amended with regards to non-proliferation?
12:47 < alexjago/D> yes
12:47 < alexjago/D> Tyrone, if you could motion "as amended" that'd be greate
12:48 <+jedb> ...this is just about at the point where people can start to lose track of what exactly has been amended in the PM, imo...
12:48 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Motion to adopt PM-2 Climate Change and Energy update "as ammended" (edited)
12:48 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Motion to adopt PM-2 Climate Change and Energy update "as amended" (edited)
12:48 < alexjago/D> All amendments agreed to are updated in the wiki text
12:48 <+jedb> oh, good
12:48 < zach__/D> So.. refresh?
12:48 < alexjago/D> I've just purged the cache of the combined page. Refresh!
12:49 < Morton/D> Refresh stream page?
12:49 < zach__/D> @First Class Villain No, the wiki page of the motions
12:49 < zach__/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2022/Motions
12:49 < Morton/D> Yeah im looking at both
12:49 < Miles/D> start voting
12:49 < Morton/D> Aye
12:49 < Miles/D> i vote aye
12:49 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
12:49 < alexjago/D> Aye
12:49 < Gimmeadrink/D> Aye
12:49 <+Deadbeat> Aye
12:49 < Satch/D> Aye
12:50 < Gold/D> Nay
12:50 < zach__/D> nay
12:50 < JohnA/D> abstain
12:50 <+jedb> aye
12:50 < mandrke/D> Aye
12:50 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
12:50 < JayStephens/D> aye
12:50 < Simon/D> aye
12:50 < milspec/D> Aye
12:50 < DanielT/D> abstain
12:51 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
12:51 < JohnA/D> Well ... quite a result.
12:52 < Miles/D> motion passes
12:53 <+jedb> wait a moment
12:54 < alexjago/D> we need to make the same amendment re non-proliferation
12:54 < Simon/D> I feel like that there needs a specific reference to Nuclear FUSION
12:55 <+jedb> COMMENT: the second paragraph sentences don't follow from each other, since the first sentence is talking about reliability, cost, and greenhouse gases, while the second sentence is talking about safety, so "for this reason" should be removed from the start of the second sentence there
12:55 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> For these reasons, Pirate Party Australia supports the removal of prohibitions on nuclear energy (both fission and fusion), nuclear fuel fabrication and reprocessing, and uranium mining in Australia at all levels of government, while retaining prohibitions on weapons-grade processing and abiding by nuclear non-proliferation agreements.
12:55 < JayStephens/D> Yes being explicit on non proliferation important in context of submarine deal!
12:55 < Gimmeadrink/D> A lot of queries I had were answered in the previous discussion
12:56 < alexjago/D> works for me!
12:56 < andrewdpirate/D> Fun thing to know: The Fusion Party branches that oppose nuclear, were convinced to be in support of Fusion (the energy source), once we explained what it was.
12:56 < DanielT/D> Question: while this is an amendment to PP policy, what is the fusion party stance on nuclear? just to ensure no crossed wires...
12:56 <+jedb> ...of course
12:56 < alexjago/D> is anyone UNHAPPY with this in comparison to the original?
12:56 < DanielT/D> wow, answered right before i pressed enter
12:58 < alexjago/D> Updated. Please refresh 
12:58 < Simon/D> What I like about this policy is that it is not ruling Nuclear out, without actually being pro-Nuclear. I think that this is the correct stance, there is a lot to sort out should it actually happen.
12:58 < Morton/D> Question: In regards to uranium mining, how does this apply in circumstances that uranium is found in places such as rainforests that should be protected? Is this something that should be explicitly mentioned in the position statement?
12:58 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> so everyone is clear that this policy is in support of nuclear fission?
12:58 < alexjago/D> same as any other mining
13:00 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Motion to adopt PM-3 Nuclear Energy - Position Statement "as amended"
13:00 <+jedb> did what I said earlier get completely missed?
13:00 <~alexjago> jedb: yes
13:01 <+jedb> yes, that is what I was suggesting
13:02 < alexjago/D> Updated again, please refresh again 
13:02 < milspec/D> What if I'm anti nuclear and anti rainforest though? Jkjk
13:02 <+jedb> wait, are there even any prohibitions on nuclear fusion in Aust?
13:03 < Miles/D> start voting
13:03  * jedb can't remember the precise wording in the legislation
13:03 < Miles/D> i vote aye
13:03 < zach__/D> aye
13:03 < Gimmeadrink/D> Aye
13:03 < Simon/D> aye
13:03 <+Deadbeat> Aye
13:03 < mandrke/D> aye
13:03 < JayStephens/D> Aye
13:03 < Satch/D> Aye
13:03 <+jedb> huh
13:03 <+jedb> aye
13:03 < Gold/D> Aye
13:03 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
13:03 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
13:03 < milspec/D> Aye
13:03 < JohnA/D> abstain
13:03 < alexjago/D> Aye
13:04 < andrewdpirate/D> Those prohibitions on Fusion in Australia are really just a side effect of a very non-specific ban on "nuclear"
13:04 < JohnA/D> sticky tape buttered bread to the back of cat.
13:04 < JohnA/D> sticky tape buttered bread to the back of a cat. (edited)
13:04 <+jedb> milspec: anti nuclear and anti rainforesters should vote against this PS and write up a PM for next year to support deforesting Tas some more :P
13:04 < Pdgeorge/D> "Dear PM: Please install more nuclear trees"
13:04 < milspec/D> Lol
13:05 < Miles/D> stop voting, motion passes
13:05 <+jedb> seems I was right, not spicy at all
13:06 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> micro-greens grown in factories ... go!
13:06 < zach__/D> Ive seen evidence of flooding prior to industrialisation too
13:07 <+jedb> microgreens have such hilariously huge profit margins
13:07 < Gold/D> I approve GMOs if they're not patent encumbered.
13:07 < JohnA/D> PROPOSAL: Include reference to our IP policy ban on patents on life.
13:08 < Pdgeorge/D> "Must be open source" ?
13:08 < milspec/D> Question: I want to see more GMO, and lab grown meat, but do we need some approval process to ensure food safety?
13:08 < Gold/D> I wouldn't call not having patents to being open source
13:08 < zach__/D> The line "The WHO has found that GMOs are safe" is extremely broad, as if ALL GMOs are safe, when its entirely plausible that some arent
13:08 < alexjago/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Platform#A_streamlined_patent_system
13:09 <+jedb> zach__: agreed, that is overly broad
13:09 < andrewdpirate/D> I'm inclined to think that blanket claims that "GMO's a safe" are about as silly as blanket claims that they are dangerous.
13:09 < JohnA/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Platform#A_streamlined_patent_system - genes and organisms
13:09 < Pdgeorge/D> Not having patents and being open source are two different things.
13:09 < milspec/D> Thanks Tyrone
13:09 < Simon/D> I think it should be reiterate that it is subject to existing safety regulations
13:10 < andrewdpirate/D> It makes more sense to allow them with review and testing,
13:10 < JohnA/D> Mmmm ... yryptophan
13:10 < JohnA/D> Mmmm ... Tyryptophan (edited)
13:10 < Gimmeadrink/D> Not just food safety, but potential environmental impact from flora that can out compete natives if released.
13:10 < JohnA/D> Mmmm ... Tryptophan (edited)
13:10 < Gimmeadrink/D> I would feel more comfortable with reference to a regulatory board of experts.
13:12 < Simon/D> "GMOs are already subject to Australian and International standards and regulations to ensure safety"
13:13 < alexjago/D> We've got 45 minutes to sort this out
13:14 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> Propose amendment:
13:14 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> While the WHO has found that GMOs can be safe [2], Pirate Party Australia acknowledges the continued need for regulation of safety and environmental impact.
13:14 < Satch/D> brb..
13:14 < Simon/D> I prefer LeRoger's wording
13:16 < alexjago/D> Updated
13:16 < JohnA/D> Proposal: Add to end of last paragraph: "This is in the context of our general ban on patents on "naturally occurring living and genetic material" as per our policy "A streamlined patent system".
13:16 <+jedb> COMMENT: stating that food production accounts for 26% of GHG emissions is probably misleading, as that includes things like packaging, transport, and refrigeration
13:17 <+jedb> the entire emissions from agriculture and forestry is more around 18-19%
13:18 < Morton/D> Comment: Current references don't have any studies in regards to the current challenges and benefits of lab grown meat. Would it be good to add a study in this topic to references? Such as one of the following?
13:18 < Morton/D> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S209531191460887X
13:18 < Morton/D> http://www.foodprotect.org/media/site/future-sustainable-alternative-to-meat.pdf
13:18 <+jedb> https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector there's a breakdown of some of the forms of land clearing
13:19 <+jedb> I know it's referenced, I checked the references earlier
13:19 <+jedb> that's why I pointed out that it grouped in other non-agri measurements
13:19 < andrewdpirate/D> Fun think to know: We should anticipate a large surge in Gene Tech in general over the next few years. Since DeepMind's AI "AlphaFold" solved the "protein folding problem", it takes only a couple of seconds to figure out the shape (and therefore function) of proteins coded by any given gene sequence, meaning genetic design is far more do-able.
13:20 < alexjago/D> Still yet to incorporate John's amendment, slow down pls
13:22 < andrewdpirate/D> Yeah, astonishing. Apparently after they got it working, they computed the shape of every known protein in humans, over their Christmas break while there was a lot of free computing resources.
13:23 < alexjago/D> Updated
13:23 < JohnA/D> Showa Denko and Tryptophan....
13:24 < milspec/D> could be huge for medicine
13:24 <+jedb> andrewdpirate: 90% accuracy isn't perfect, but that is still pretty fantastic
13:24 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> While the WHO has found that GMOs can be safe.[2] Pirate Party Australia acknowledges the continued need for regulation of safety and environmental impact.
13:25 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> Was meant to be a comma in between rather than full stop. Otherwise remove, "While" from the front so the sentence reads better
13:25 <+jedb> no, wait, 90% for 2/3rds of the proteins...?
13:25 < alexjago/D> ah yep
13:26 < alexjago/D> fixed and will propagate through eventually - in the source wikitext there's a whacking great <ref> at the end of the existing clause
13:27 < Morton/D> Proposed addition to the last paragraph
13:27 < Morton/D> The big challenge of a sustainable future food supply can only be achieved by pursuing a number of viable solutions that will only become effective when combined. GMOs, precision fermentation and lab grown meat is among the many possible factors that can contribute to solve the problem. Through greater use of these meats, we can reduce the environmental impacts of food production <clipped message>
13:27 < Morton/D>  which also ensuring we retain a high standard of living and improve food security. For these reasons, Pirate Party Australia supports removing any legislative bans on these technologies, a streamlining of regulations to support their adoption, and government investment into research and commercialisation of these technologies in Australia.
13:28 < Satch/D> I'm yet to try lab grown meat, love a good steak though. 
13:28 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> The big challenge of a sustainable future food supply can only be achieved by pursuing a number of viable solutions that will only become effective when combined. GMOs, precision fermentation and lab grown meat are among the many possible factors that can contribute to solve the problem. Through greater use of these meats, we can reduce the environmental impacts of food productio <clipped message>
13:28 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> n which also ensuring we retain a high standard of living and improve food security. For these reasons, Pirate Party Australia supports removing any legislative bans on these technologies, a streamlining of regulations to support their adoption, and government investment into research and commercialisation of these technologies in Australia.
13:29 < alexjago/D> also "meats" to something else
13:29 < andrewdpirate/D> Have a cow man.
13:29  * jedb wishes he could afford steak
13:29 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> The big challenge of a sustainable future food supply can only be achieved by pursuing a number of viable solutions that will only become effective when combined. GMOs, precision fermentation and lab grown meat are among the many possible factors that can contribute to solve the problem. Through greater use of these technologies, we can reduce the environmental impacts of food pr <clipped message>
13:29 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> oduction which also ensuring we retain a high standard of living and improve food security. For these reasons, Pirate Party Australia supports removing any legislative bans on these technologies, a streamlining of regulations to support their adoption, and government investment into research and commercialisation of these technologies in Australia. (edited)
13:29 < Morton/D> Que piracy add: "You wouldn't download a Cow"
13:29 < alexjago/D> also final sentence: 
13:29 < alexjago/D> > For these reasons, Pirate Party Australia supports removing any legislative bans on these technologies, a streamlining of regulations to support their adoption, and government investment into their research and commercialisation in Australia.
13:29 < Satch/D> GMOs are great, though there's also the potential for the tech to be used for anti-competitive practice rather than improving the quality and yield.
13:30 < alexjago/D> anti-patent provisions aint going anywhere
13:30 < zach__/D> I think theres enough problems with real food with regards to health that introducing GMOs is only adding to that, not reducing it
13:30 <+jedb> Morton: that would be attached to a picture of bart simpson so fast I wouldn't be surprised if it already existed
13:30 < alexjago/D> look up the potato diet
13:30 < alexjago/D> @Tron92
13:31 < alexjago/D> > The big challenge of a sustainable future food supply can only be achieved by pursuing a number of viable solutions that will only become effective when combined. GMOs, precision fermentation and lab grown meat are among the many possible factors that can contribute to solve the problem. Through greater use of these technologies, we can reduce the environmental impacts of food  <clipped message>
13:31 < alexjago/D> production which also ensuring we retain a high standard of living and improve food security. For these reasons, Pirate Party Australia supports removing any legislative bans on these technologies, a streamlining of regulations to support their adoption, and government investment into their research and commercialisation in Australia.
13:31 <+jedb> zach__: overwhelmingly the biggest problem with real food regarding health is simply eating too much of it, which is kind of interesting given what we're talking about here
13:32 <+jedb> zach__: so since GMOs are often designed around being able to produce even *more* food, you're technically correct
13:32 < JohnA/D> There are different problems.
13:33 < zach__/D> Overconsumption is a big problem, but I was referring to the micronutrients more so. Some would try to increase the macros and thus count as 'more food' but lack the micros
13:33 < alexjago/D> Updated
13:33 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Motion to adopt PM-4 GMOs and Precision Fermentation - Position Statement "As Amended"
13:33 < Gimmeadrink/D> Would all GMO food count as processed food?  
13:34 < Miles/D> start voting
13:34 < zach__/D> nay
13:34 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
13:34 < Gimmeadrink/D> Aye
13:34 < Morton/D> aye
13:34 < Miles/D> i vote aye
13:34 <+jedb> aye
13:34 < JohnA/D> aye
13:34 < Satch/D> Aye
13:34 < mandrke/D> aye
13:34 <+Deadbeat> Abstain
13:34 < milspec/D> aye
13:34 < Simon/D> AYE
13:34 < DanielT/D> Aye
13:34 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
13:34 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
13:34 < Gold/D> Aye
13:34 < alexjago/D> Aye
13:34 < zach__/D> Enjoy your mystery meat in a can ^^
13:35 < mandrke/D> we already do... SPAM(tm) or Devon
13:35 < Satch/D> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/1000275045395996702/unknown.png
13:36 < Simon/D> @zach__ I think that this is related to food production itself as opposed to processing or nutritional value
13:36 < Morton/D> I'll take mystery meat over no meat any day.
13:36 < zach__/D> Nutitional value is essential to the problem of GMOs
13:36 < alexjago/D> I just want my bacon flavoured potatoes, is that so wrong?
13:36 < Satch/D> SPAM is good fried up with eggs if you don't have bacon.
13:37 < Miles/D> stop voting
13:37 < alexjago/D> yeah but we're perfectly capable of breeding micro out already, so GMOs don't really change things
13:37 < Gimmeadrink/D> https://tenor.com/view/charleton-heston-soylent-green-soylent-green-is-people-gif-15455181
13:38 <+jedb> alexjago: does this count? https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/24332/ultimate-twice-baked-potatoes/
13:38 < alexjago/D> hey now it has a nice web interface
13:39 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> it really doesn't
13:39 < alexjago/D> I love it a lot more now I have a Selenium script to help me do AEC audits
13:39 < mandrke/D> No it isn't People, it's Choc-Mint:
13:39 < mandrke/D> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/1000276037323718687/unknown.png
13:40 < Simon/D> mmm Soylent green
13:40 < milspec/D> any more updates from the Fusion exec team? we don't really hear much of what must be going on behind the scenes
13:40 < Satch/D> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580190396110340107/1000276275975430204/unknown.png
13:40 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> hey
13:40 < JohnA/D> soylent was originally a contraction of soybean and lentil.
13:41 < Simon/D> Miles I too would like a bit of a rundown of how the Pirates are integrated with Fusion and where we really stand as our own entity
13:41 < andrewdpirate/D> Roger could probably comment on Fusion directions ....
13:42 < Satch/D> ^ That is on the cards, where do we draw the line between promoting Fusion and retaining Pirates.
13:45 < andrewdpirate/D> Fusion constitution explicitly recognizes the role of branches and the promotion of their specific interests.
13:47 < Satch/D> As suggested previously, I think Pirate members should have the option of sharing their contact details with Fusion, so we can respect the right to privacy while expanding the Nation Builder member base.
13:47 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Pirates :tapebones:
13:47 < milspec/D> That's great, thanks Roger and Miles
13:49 < Gimmeadrink/D> Is the Fusion branding staying the same?  I know there was some discussion about it.
13:49 < Simon/D> thanks Roger
13:49 < alexjago/D> the more you change, the less signage that can be re-used
13:51 < Gimmeadrink/D> Cheers Roger
13:51 < Satch/D> I love the Fusion logo, but the name has been cause for confusion. A lot of people asking if we're all about nuclear..
13:52 < milspec/D> Tyrone: yes
13:52 < Pdgeorge/D> This. Fusion means... almost nothing in the political sense
13:52 < Gold/D> lol
13:52 < Simon/D> I like the name
13:52 < Pdgeorge/D> This. Fusion means... almost nothing to so many people (edited)
13:53 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> I prefer asian fusion myself
13:53 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> it's yumm
13:53 < Simon/D> We should do more social events on discord etc. with the other branches, I feel like there are a lot of cool discussions to be had
13:54 < JohnA/D> Got an EV thing on tomorrow will be scarce.
13:54 < zach__/D> With common policies in Fusion, would the Pirate party narrow towards its core policies?
13:54 < Pdgeorge/D> The joke about sponsoring/engaging in the Global Solar Challenge would definitely be interesting
13:55 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Thanks everyone!
13:55 < Pdgeorge/D> 
13:57 < milspec/D> 
13:57 < Satch/D> Thanks Miles, thank you all!
13:57 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> thanks everyone
13:57 < Steven/D> thanks everyone!
13:57 < Gimmeadrink/D> Cheers all
13:57 < DanielT/D> gnite all
13:57 < zach__/D> We need a motion for lunch break but not to end for the day?
13:57 < Morton/D> Thanks all
13:57 < Simon/D> ty
13:58 < Miles/D> i forgot to motion to close
13:58 <+jedb> lol
13:58 < Satch/D> We reached the end of the agenda, so I guess that's a given.
13:58 < milspec/D> Thanks Miles, cya guys
13:58 < alexjago/D> MOTION: adjourn until tomorrow
13:58 < Miles/D> ^ thanks alex
13:58 < Miles/D> i vote aye
13:58 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
13:58 < zach__/D> aye
13:58 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
13:58 <+jedb> aye
13:58 < Satch/D> Aye
13:59 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
13:59 < mandrke/D> Aye
13:59 < milspec/D> aye
13:59 < Gold/D> Aye
13:59 < alexjago/D> I'm logged in to the PPAU account so I got Sky News
13:59 < Satch/D> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSNsgj1OCLA&ab_channel=Veritasium
13:59 < alexjago/D> ugh
14:00 < Miles/D> stop voting,  motion passes
14:03 < alexjago/D> Minutes for today: https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2022/Minutes/2022-07-23

----- Start of Sunday ------

07:58 < Miles/D> this  morning we need @Gimmeadrink @Pdgeorge @augus
07:58 < Miles/D> this  morning we need @Gimmeadrink @Pdgeorge (edited)
07:58 < Miles/D> @JohnA
07:59 < Miles/D> also @Tron92 if you all want to hop on the vdo
07:59 < Pdgeorge/D> On now, kids needed breakfast
08:06 < Pdgeorge/D> Hello
08:06 < Steven/D> yo!
08:06 < zach__/D> Howdy
08:06 < Satch/D> Morning all
08:06 < alexjago/D> @Sicarious are you about?
08:06 < andrewdpirate/D> yo
08:06 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Look mom, i am on the internet
08:07 < andrewdpirate/D> Greetings fellow earthlings
08:07 < alexjago/D> Our Returning Officer for Congress this weekend is Sean O'Farrell, continuing DRC
08:08 < Satch/D> I'm happy to renominate for NC if it helps, though looks pretty good.
08:09 < Miles/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Pirate_Congress_2022/Nominations
08:12 < Miles/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/National_Congress_Standing_Orders
08:13 < Miles/D> MOTION: amend the standing orders 2 (1) to "Nominations for electable positions may be made up until the end of National Congress"
08:13 < andrewdpirate/D> For next year, I want to suggest that the position of Policy Development Officer be defined as an NC member, possibly as a replacement for one of the current Councilor positions. Can't do that this year because it would take a constitutional change.
08:13 < alexjago/D> So someone could nominate for any position until 15:59 today?
08:14 < zach__/D> Up until the position is elected?
08:14 < alexjago/D> In that case all we can really do now id give nomination speeches
08:14 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> may I speak?
08:15 < mandrke/D> May I admend the admendment?
08:15 < mandrke/D> May I amend the amendment? (edited)
08:15 < alexjago/D> I would support an amendment to keep nominations open for Deputy President and Treasurer
08:17 < alexjago/D> MOTION to AMEND the current Motion to read as follows: "Nominations for electable positions without nominations at the opening of Congress Day 2 may be made from the floor until the end of the session."
08:20 < mandrke/D> MOTION to AMEND the current Motion to read as follows: "Nominations for electable positions may be made from the floor until the end of the Nomination Speeches section."
08:20 < Miles/D> i accept  the sentiment behind both
08:20 < Miles/D> new motion wording
08:21 < Miles/D> MOTION: Amend the standing orders 2(1) to read "Nominations for  Deputy  Treasurer  and Deputy Secretary may be made from the floor until the end of Nominations agenda item."
08:21 < alexjago/D> BTW, weird oversight that contested positions don't go to a full member vote. I'm sure they traditionally have.
08:22 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> Dep PRes, not Dep Sec
08:23 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> Dep Pres, not Dep Sec (edited)
08:23 < JohnA/D> am at electric vehicle  event today
08:23 < Miles/D> MOTION: Amend the standing orders 2(1) to read "Nominations for  Deputy Treasurer  and Deputy President may be made from the floor until the end of Nominations agenda item."
08:23 < alexjago/D> good
08:24 < andrewdpirate/D> Nothing. Go ahead
08:24 < Miles/D> start voting
08:24 < Miles/D> I vote aye
08:24 < zach__/D> aye
08:24 < mandrke/D> aye
08:24 < Satch/D> Aye
08:25 <+ian_haywood> aye 
08:25 < andrewdpirate/D> Nay
08:25 < alexjago/D> Aye
08:25 < Sam/D> Aye
08:25 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
08:25 < Gold/D> Aye
08:25 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
08:27 < Miles/D> stop voting
08:28 < alexjago/D> Yeah it's up
08:28 < alexjago/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/File:PPAU_Presidents_Address_2022.pdf
08:29 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Way to make us all look slack Miles
08:32 < zach__/D> Were you ever a member of any other party?
08:33 < alexjago/D> Our RO is MIA
08:41 < andrewdpirate/D> @alexjago How're you doing at delegating?
08:41 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> he's starting with saying no to new things ... it's a start
08:43 < andrewdpirate/D> The correct answer was "Hey Roger, how are we doing at delegating?"
08:46 < Satch/D> brb
08:49 < alexjago/D> "A couple of roles" he says - Secretary and Acting President
08:50 < alexjago/D> Disagree - we need 3 more ROgers
08:51 < Sean-O-/D> Ah shit, jumping on now
08:51 < zach__/D> Why are you nominating yourself for the deputy and not the lead position?
08:55 < mandrke/D> FUSION future... Hopefully the prime ministership! (but Balance of power would also be nice)
08:55 < andrewdpirate/D> How do you feel about the broader Fusion Party commitment to individual liberties?
08:58 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Question: What do you think is PPAU's biggest weakness is and how would you/contributed to fix this weakness in the position you are running for?
09:00 < zach__/D> We got everyones brain going now with all these questions that are perhaps better targetted towards key leadership
09:02 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Thanks, Roger.
09:02 < alexjago/D> Some of this will be great for this afternoon
09:03 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Perhaps at the end of The questinong around, people can come up with a few las question directed back at the different candidates incase the suddenly get a few questions.
09:04 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Perhaps at the end of The questinong around, people can come up with a few last question directed back at the different candidates incase the suddenly get a few questions. (edited)
09:05 < alexjago/D> All I got is Dalek
09:06 < Satch/D> Same
09:06 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Communication dissruption
09:06 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-communications-gif-19586075
09:06 < Sam/D> I'm struggling to understand
09:06 < zach__/D> I restart my computer or audio interface if my speakers sound like this..
09:07 < Sam/D> That's a lot better
09:08 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> *If you are looking to outsource the IT deparment, look no further*
09:10 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> awesome! Nuclear livestream when? haha
09:11 < andrewdpirate/D> As a father of 7yo's, what are you thinking are the longer term political issues that need to be resolved for their futures?
09:13 < Sean-O-/D> What are your opinions on children's or teens' privacy rights re. their parents?
09:13 < Satch/D> Security of income as more and more jobs become obsolete
09:13 < andrewdpirate/D> Good answer
09:13 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> saucy question
09:14 < Satch/D> You don't HAVE to visit 4chan. 
09:14 < Steven/D> We have the roblox -> private discord pipeline instead
09:15 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> Piratebay > 4chan
09:15 < andrewdpirate/D> 8chan presumably twice as bad as 4chan
09:15 < mandrke/D> or adding 4 more to the chan...
09:16 < Sean-O-/D> Perhaps a more narrow version of that, should minors' chats with school friends be monitored by their parents?
09:17 < Satch/D> 12yo nephew is on our xbox right now chatting to friends and strangers in GTA. He's pretty careful though.
09:18 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> education > monitoring ?
09:18 < Sean-O-/D> Good answer 
09:18 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> I thinl the besy way is to teach the child that if something BS happens they should tell the parent.
09:18 < Satch/D> Up until a point of maturity, it just makes sense, as kids won't always realise if they're being groomed or radicalised somehow.
09:18 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> But its a fineline to walk an no silver bullet for any solution.
09:19 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Good discussion but I question relevance
09:20 < Sean-O-/D> He made fatherhood a core part of his personal candidacy platform, figured it was worth questioning how that interacted with his views on the pirate platform
09:23 < Satch/D> @mandrke I added my re-nomination entry ~10AM this morning, just hasn't been refreshed yet for the stream.
09:23 <~alexjago> 17 minutes past midnight!
09:23 < andrewdpirate/D> What policy areas did you write about for the Greens?
09:24 < zach__/D> Why did you leave the Greens?
09:27 < Gold/D> I can only guess given Tyrone, lol
09:31 < alexjago/D> QUESTION: how YIMBY is it possible to be without being a developer shill?
09:31 < zach__/D> How will you fit in with the Pirates who dont share Greens values?
09:35 < Gold/D> What were some of your urban planning proposals that you made within the greens?
09:35 < mandrke/D> OK, Satch... done!
09:35 < alexjago/D> there's a good question from nitorius on the main channel
09:35 < alexjago/D> > The fusion party have a policy which will cease all fossil extraction in 2 years, what would be used to replace this energy generation in such a short time?
09:37 < Sean-O-/D> Wait what? I thought that was *new*.
09:37 < Sean-O-/D> If that's *all*, that's dumb as hell
09:37 < alexjago/D> yeah ypu're probably correct
09:38 < Gold/D> Its net zero by 2030, so its probably not all
09:42 < Satch/D> Odd, I'm streaming
09:43 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Are you pro WAExit? Or pro federation?
09:44 < Sean-O-/D> Classical Pirate 
09:46 < Gold/D> Given what you said about alcohol and drugs, what's your opinion on the recent lifting of alcohol free zones in the NT?
09:47 < Sean-O-/D> How about a Reverse New Zexit?
09:48 <+jedb> alcohol free zones are actually quite common, it's only making them town-wide that is unusual
09:48 < alexjago/D> yeah there are alcohol free zones in Lennox Head (two bays south of Byron)
09:49 <+jedb> afaik they're usually local govt level banning booze on the streets of the CBD and the like
09:49 < alexjago/D> ... and the Lennox ones are for New Years Eve... and only then
09:51 < Sean-O-/D> Should these "dry zone" rules implemented by local government apply in both public and private spaces as they do now, or should they be limited in some way to mitigate restrictions upon the non-consenting within those communities?
09:54 < Sean-O-/D> Based on that, what limits do you envisage on the powers of local government vis-a-vis  import prohibitions?
09:57 < milspec/D> What kind of events could we run in WA to get more engagement amongst members?
09:57 < alexjago/D> is 9pm AEST a good meeting time?
10:00 < milspec/D> 
10:01 <+jedb> should we consider policy to do away with daylight savings to simplify the timezones a bit?
10:01 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> yes. 1000x yes
10:01 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> nooooo
10:01 < Sean-O-/D> Hard no from me
10:01 < Sam/D> Yes definitely
10:01 < Gold/D> I want my sun back
10:01  * jedb laughs like a lunatic
10:01 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> I want DLS in QLD
10:02 < zach__/D> Could always do an always daylight time situation like some places
10:02 < Sam/D> No Way!!!
10:02 <+jedb> Perth rejected it twice, iirc
10:03 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> I move that we continue to next speaker
10:03 < milspec/D> Australian timezones are needlessly complex (including Adelaide being offset by half an hr)
10:04 <+jedb> milspec: don't forget the unofficial +8:45 going on around the nullarbor
10:04 < milspec/D> Yeah exactly
10:06 <+ian_haywood> agree
10:07 < alexjago/D> QUESTION: as a returning Councillor, would you consider going for one of the open Deputy positions?
10:08 < Sean-O-/D> You state that you support "the bulk" of our policy as it currently stands, what policies in particular do you not support?
10:08 < Gimmeadrink/D> Dropping off and shifting to Youtube on the TV so my kids can use the PC.
10:12 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Is there anything that you hoped to achieve in the previous NC that you weren't able to?
10:12 < zach__/D> What do you think about [insert hot topic]?
10:13 < alexjago/D> "I am in favour of good things and opposed to bad things"
10:16 < alexjago/D> (until this year I was Treasurer of my choir)
10:16 < Gold/D> getting a bit of feedback
10:17 < milspec/D> If someone pages @JohnA , there's a chance he might rock up I think. He said he was going to an EV event but might be able to dial in on his phone
10:18 < Sean-O-/D> Well, he seems to be standing unopposed?
10:18 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> apparently he has a radio show 
10:18 < Sean-O-/D> And it's not like we can just... *not* elect a treasurer
10:18 < Sean-O-/D> So I say move on
10:19 < alexjago/D> We have unopposed nominations for everything but Councillor [4/3] and deputies President and Treasurer [0/1 each]
10:19 < milspec/D> If John was he he would say "... And I guess I'll leave it at that"
10:19 < milspec/D> If John was here he would say "... And I guess I'll leave it at that" (edited)
10:19 < Pdgeorge/D> Sorry, kids need attention, need to abandon.
10:21 < Sean-O-/D> I am
10:22 < JohnA/D> Yes here at ev show. I think my candidates statement speaks for itself.
10:23 < alexjago/D> The Constitution requires us to use Schulze Condorcet
10:24 < alexjago/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/constitution/#part-iii-10.1(9)
10:27 < mandrke/D> I could do mine as well...
10:28 < Gimmeadrink/D> To keep things fair and easy, I'll withdraw my nomination for Councillor.
10:28 < Gimmeadrink/D> Adam
10:29 < Gimmeadrink/D> ...
10:29 < Gimmeadrink/D> I don't think I'm experienced enough for DP, and I'm not very fiscally minded
10:30 < zach__/D> Is there a victory speech?
10:34 < Satch/D> damn echo
10:34 < Satch/D> Sorry
10:34 <+jedb> impressive echo, you mean
10:34 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> That Echo went in to another dimension
10:35 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> A duel is required between Adam and David
10:35 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> sabres or pistols?
10:35 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> https://tenor.com/view/lazy-company-combat-fight-gif-8896178
10:35 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> loser walks the plank
10:36 < Satch/D> What are your thoughts @Gimmeadrink ?
10:36 < Satch/D> ah, easy done
10:36 < Gimmeadrink/D> Would you consider the dept pres?
10:36 < JohnA/D> As recommended by alex, I notify the meeting that I accept my win to the position of Treasurer.
10:36 < Gimmeadrink/D> Or Dept treasurer
10:37 <+jedb> Tyrone-D-Lisle: insult swordfighting perhaps
10:37 < Gimmeadrink/D> https://tenor.com/view/monkey-island-insults-curse-of-monkey-island-guybrush-threepwood-captain-rottingham-gif-25426776
10:37 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> @Pdgeorge
10:38 < Sam/D> Do any of the nominees want dept treasurer or dept president?
10:38 < Sean-O-/D> Michael George, David Kennedy and Tyrone D'Lisle are hereby elected, do they accept?
10:38 < Satch/D> Yes, I accept
10:40 < mandrke/D> Michael accepts as well (as heard on call)
10:40 < mandrke/D> permission to speak?
10:44 < Miles/D> MOTION: break for lunch (1 hour)
10:44 < Miles/D> start votes
10:44 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
10:44 < Miles/D> i vote aye
10:44 < Pdgeorge/D> Aye
10:44 < zach__/D> aye
10:44 <+jedb> abstain
10:44 < JayStephens/D> aye
10:44 < Gold/D> Aye
10:44 < Satch/D> Aye
10:44 < Gimmeadrink/D> Aye
10:44 < Sean-O-/D> AYE
10:44 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
10:44 < mandrke/D> aye
10:44 < Sam/D> aye
10:44 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
10:44 < alexjago/D> Aye
10:44 <+Deadbeat> Aye
10:45 < milspec/D> Aye
10:45 <+ian_haywood> aye
10:45 < Sean-O-/D> @Archaic you are reelected to DRC, please indicate your acceptance at the earliest possible date.
10:46 < Gimmeadrink/D> I'd definitely be interested.
10:46 < Miles/D> stop voting, motion passes
10:46 < Gold/D> alright, gotta go buy some food as I'm completely out
10:46 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> me too
10:47 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Please state on youtube that we are taking break for 1 hour
10:47 < The-Resident-Norwegian---William/D> I got some toast, but i am unsure if it will arrive in time.
10:47 < JayStephens/D> here's liam
10:48 < Dr-Liam/D> I accept re-election.
10:48 < Dr-Liam/D> (Apologies I cant be here for congress this year - COVID PCR came back negative, thank goodness, but Im really not feeling well right now.)
10:48 < Sean-O-/D> Excellent

----- Sunday lunch -----

11:43 < Miles/D> hello everyone, i've prepared a series of stimulus questions for our afternoon session on strategy https://pad.pirateparty.org.au/p/r.4b380ad932e257e62de02585562f13bf
11:44 < Miles/D> id like to return shortly we're just waiting on mandrake
11:44 < Simon/D> Science Party have a Charter City policy, maybe piggy back off that
11:44 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> How will this discussion happen miles?
11:45 < Miles/D> @Sicarious we forgot to do PDO election, can you come back on ninja?
11:45 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> do we all jump on the call or will it be text based
11:45 < Miles/D> freeform, ill take everyone through each of the 4 sections and we hear responses to the questions and discuss them one by one
11:45 < Miles/D> anyone wanting to use voice jump on the ninja
11:46 < Miles/D> https://pad.pirateparty.org.au/p/r.4b380ad932e257e62de02585562f13bf strategy stimulus questions
11:48 <+jedb> countries that we could learn from with urban planning are places like Netherlands, Switzerland, and Japan
11:50 < andrewdpirate/D> I currently do hold both positions
11:51 < Gimmeadrink/D> @milspec 
11:51 < Gimmeadrink/D> 1) It is confusing trying to explain how NIT and UBI intersect, especially as it is not my forte.  Focusing on the UBI makes it easier to sell the benefits.
11:51 < Gimmeadrink/D> 2) I disagree with state Gov being in control of zoning.  I don't trust the state level to have the residents best interests in mind, and can see unscrupulous premiers using it to turn certain areas into ultra high density slums.
11:51 < Gimmeadrink/D> 3) Absolutely.  The idea of 'education' should be expanded beyond just university, and support structures should be in place for those seeking to better their lot in life through different avenues.
11:52 < Simon/D> I think that we should have multiple charter cities/communities, each could be centred around different ideologies, i.e. an Anarchist city, an AnCap city, a Communist city, a relgious city, a COVID-zero city, etc. by consent of the participants actively choosing to live that lifestyle.
11:52 < Sean-O-/D> As yes, devolve all government and restore city states
11:52 < Sean-O-/D> I approve
11:53 <+jedb> I mean, sure, if a group of people want to go off and play by their own rules then more power to them, but I doubt it would actually happen like that
11:54 < Miles/D> MOTION: that Pirate Party Australia National Congress 2023 be held online
11:54 < alexjago/D> The Party Constitution requires that Annual National Congress "begin in July"
11:54 < Miles/D> place your votes
11:54 < Miles/D> i vote aye
11:55 < zach__/D> aye
11:55 < alexjago/D> Aye
11:55 < Gimmeadrink/D> aye
11:55 < Satch/D> Aye
11:55 <+jedb> abstain
11:55 < Simon/D> aye
11:55 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
11:55 < mandrke/D> aye
11:55 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
11:55 < Sean-O-/D> Aye
11:55 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
11:55 <+Deadbeat> Aye
11:55 < DanielT/D> aye
11:55 < milspec/D> Aye
11:56 < JayStephens/D> aye
11:56 < andrewdpirate/D> Well, if they want to start their own cities from scratch. Otherwise existing residents would be forced to adopt the city specific ideology or leave.
11:57 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> please bring the chat back to Congress
11:57 < zach__/D> https://pad.pirateparty.org.au/p/r.4b380ad932e257e62de02585562f13bf
11:58 < Gold/D> Seems like I took longer than expected
11:59 < Sean-O-/D> Broadly speaking, I think that we could start taking a greater interest in justice reform.
12:00 < Simon/D> for those not aware, lunch as resumed and Miles is talking in the youtube stream
12:01 < andrewdpirate/D> What would you like to see happen in justice reform?
12:01 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Energy and environmental policy is my key area of focus. I think we should be fleshing out a lot more policy in those areas.
12:01 < JayStephens/D> not an answer but a "further to what Miles said" really - IMO the retention and reduced turnover is down to respecting boundaries on the part of e.g. Miles, Alex, Roger et al, which has made it a "safe space" for folks like myself (completing MA ,full time job, 2 young kids etc) to feel like we can contribute what we can without pressure. We could possibly look to formalise that  <clipped message>
12:01 < JayStephens/D> in various ways (and I'd be happy to draft something around that)
12:01 < zach__/D> Well, this national congress isnt even on the calendar on the website. Website could use some love
12:02 < JayStephens/D> yahahahah
12:03 <+thesunnyk> On Growth.1: I've seen people with a lot of reach start to say "Pirate" a lot more now than earlier, complete with spitballing policies which look a lot like ours (cultural policies relating to archival / DRM for example). I think there is space to create relationships here.
12:05 < alexjago/D> I will note that the initial Congress announcement email was posted to the website 
12:06 < Sean-O-/D> An example might be my recent discussion that I started about penalties and/or compensation for inappropriate criminal charges. If the prosecution is brought to conclusion, you can potentially sue for malicious prosecution, but if they hold you for months and trash your reputation by bringing charges, only to drop them at the last minute, you have no recourse. This mechanism ince <clipped message>
12:06 < Sean-O-/D> ntivises police to file charges against anybody they'd like held, even if they have no reasonable basis to believe that a conviction, *or even just a prosecution*, could result.
12:08 < Simon/D> I think that being with Fusion is a great outlet for the party to get our ideas out through a separate brand, one which helps cut through to voters who don't want to feel obligated to go through complex policy documents or can't look past the Pirate name, or perhaps the other member parties value-add to our policies such as being more environmentally focused, but at the same time <clipped message>
12:09 < Simon/D>  we get to retain all our policies and identity for those who are into all that.
12:10 < Sean-O-/D> And establishing penalties and/or compensation for people who are harmed by executive overreach - for example, no legislative authority actually exists for warrantless device searches by border forces, but if they do so anyway, there's no personal remedy
12:10 < milspec/D> > 4. Why do you identify with the Pirates?
12:10 < milspec/D> > 5. What area of the policy are you most interested in? Do you think it could be improved?
12:10 < Satch/D> Initiation rites for pirates? :ppau:
12:12 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> pretty sure we've already missed deadline for NSW
12:13 < alexjago/D> that was end of June
12:13 < alexjago/D> to be a rego
12:13 < milspec/D> > 4. Why do you identify with the Pirates?
12:13 < milspec/D> I like the economic policies - embracing market based mechanisms while being concerned for the environment and poverty
12:13 < milspec/D> > 5. What area of the policy are you most interested in? Do you think it could be improved? 
12:13 < milspec/D> I'm the most interested in the economic policies. I'm very aligned, but there might be some tweaks that we can discuss more about as a team and build consensus on (eg. stronger position on LVT, UBI vs NIT, zoning changes)
12:13 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> 1. Where do we want to be next year?     Double our membership, have a fleshed out policy platform, be the dominant branch in Fusion
12:13 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> 2. Where do we want to be in 5 years time?  Have our first MPs or Crs elected.
12:13 < Sam/D> Going onto the Fusion website, the join button doesn't seem to be able to let you join a branch. It only seems to be a general fusion membership.
12:14 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> yeah that should be changed.
12:14 < JayStephens/D> From an IR perspective i'd like to see in 5yr time:
12:14 < JayStephens/D> - regular participation in PPI and other world orgs at a formal level
12:14 < JayStephens/D> - significantly broader and deeper policy platform in part from collaboration with sibling parties
12:15 < alexjago/D> no shortage of ambition here
12:16 <+thesunnyk> 5 years: 4%. TBH we're a federal party, most of our policy platform is federal.
12:16 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> Discussion is in progress currently.
12:17 < Gimmeadrink/D> This is more Fusion orientated, but there should be a little tongue in cheek quiz when an unaffiliated person joins.  'Which would you prefer, hugging a tree, in the lab, sailing the high seas' etc that points them to the appropriate branch membership page/gives them the appropriate Fusion role in Discord.
12:17 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> That is a cool idea for those who are unsure
12:18 <+ian_haywood> what is LVT?
12:18 < milspec/D> land value tax
12:19 < zach__/D> "Of all places", where else?
12:19 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> The vast majority of people who came across Fusion as part of the election have specifically called out that they wanted to join Fusion directly. At the start, we were enforcing new members to join a branch and there was backlash.
12:20 < milspec/D> That's pretty awesome
12:20 < Sam/D> Like state branches?
12:21 < alexjago/D> I think local groups would more likely be Fusion wide
12:21 < Sam/D> It'd be a good long term goal
12:21 < Sam/D> Particularly for state elections
12:21 < Gimmeadrink/D> The Monroe Pirate doctrine?
12:22 < milspec/D> 'dense' population indeed 
12:22 <+thesunnyk> Contrariwise: You need less growth in other states to get into senate.
12:22 < alexjago/D> TBH WA is about to have the most favourable electoral system in the upper house
12:23 < Morton/D> 3. What areas of the party would you like to learn more about? 
12:23 < Morton/D> Some members have pointed out some points of disagreement with fusion policies. I would like to learn more about where pirate party and fusion policies differ.
12:23 < Morton/D> 4. Why do you identify with the Pirates?
12:23 < Morton/D> After looking more deeply into politics over the 2022 election runup, I found the pirate party policy was the one I agreed with most points with many issues. In particular, moving from Greens to pirates for myself due to less focus on social issues and more focus on issues that will keep humanity alive in the next century.
12:23 < Morton/D> 5. What area of the policy are you most interested in? Do you think it could be improved? 
12:23 < Morton/D> Privacy policy and Environment policy.
12:23 < Morton/D> Privacy Policy: I believe it would be worth adding policy about the storage of data, in relation to what kind of data companies can store, and reasons why they can store it.
12:23 < Morton/D> Environment Policy: I believe we could have specific policy regarding no-fishing zones to prevent overfishing
12:24 < andrewdpirate/D> We need a sorting hat.
12:24 < Gimmeadrink/D> Typical Eastern attitude.  
12:24 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Are the differences great enough for us to remain our own entity within Fusion long term? 
12:24 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> I personally think so.
12:25 < Sam/D> 1. What area(s) of the party have we succeeded in?
12:26 < Gimmeadrink/D> That's the funding sorted.
12:26 < Satch/D> Yep, implementation strategy for UBI, extent of support for nuclear, and how optimistic should our environmental / climate action targets be. Also some debate over free speech (the line between freedom and 'vilification' or hate speech)
12:27 < Simon/D> Can you please tell us if there has been any particular point(s) of contention with other Fusion branches either with policy or values?
12:28 < Morton/D> jedb mentioned climate emergency party's polies in #ID:557206450825461771 earlier
12:29 < milspec/D> Someone should build a matrix showing which fusion branch supports which policies
12:29 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Vote Planet has policies and values which want direct government intervention, reject nuclear, GMOs, etc.
12:30 < milspec/D> True
12:31 <+jedb> contentious issues with Fusion policies imo are things like micromanagement, unreasonably excessive targets (eg 800% renewables), and non-evidence based policy (eg reject nuclear)
12:31 < Simon/D> @Tron92
12:31 < Simon/D> We are open on disagreement andthat is to be celebrated
12:31 < Morton/D> jedb mentioned climate emergency party's policies in #ID:557206450825461771 earlier (edited)
12:32 < andrewdpirate/D> Working in the Fusion policy group, the most jarring difference for me came with discussions from Vote Planet, where they want to declare a "Climate Emergency", and in their own words, put the country on something resembling a war footing where the government takes executive control of industry to force the required changes.
12:32 <+jedb> COMMENT: these issues with contentious policies and negotiation means that it is even more important to be very clear about party values and what they mean
12:32 < JayStephens/D> Agree let's explicitly try to structure ourselves to avoid the constituent parties turning into backroom influence gangs
12:33 < Satch/D> Something like a Venn diagram combined with a mind-map visual structure could work.
12:34 <+thesunnyk> I think declaring a climate emergency (wth war footing) is somewhat backed by scientists. We did this more or less for Covid. overall the idea is to do this more or less.
12:34 <+ian_haywood> education: is there a policy to make publicly funded universities release their content (lectures, research)?
12:35 < zach__/D> Currently, the policies are passed by majority vote, and thus the party follows the common set of policies supported by its members, which is a stark distinction from following the core narrow pirate policies. How do we reconcile this?
12:36 < Sam/D> 1. What area(s) of the party have we succeeded in?
12:36 < Sam/D> I joined the party at the start of the year and the detailed policy platform with evidence references stood out massively which helped it to differentiate from non Labor/Liberal/Greens parties. 
12:36 < Sam/D> 2. What area(s) of the party have we failed or underperformed?
12:36 < Sam/D> I think we could improve on social media engagement with the party outside of discord. Particularly now since more focus will be directed to Fusion since they are the registered party competing in elections.
12:36 <+jedb> thesunnyk: trampling over human rights to deal with the climate the same way human rights got trampled to deal with covid seems unwise
12:37 < Gimmeadrink/D> MIT currently offer a lot of their content online, and they haven't gone bankrupt. No reason Aussie unis can't do the same
12:37 <+thesunnyk> I was referring to the government giving massive assistance
12:37 <+thesunnyk> (unfortunately to big business, but we're seeing serious inflation as a result)
12:38 <+thesunnyk> The aim for "war footing" is to increase economic risk to reduce survival risk.
12:38 < alexjago/D> COMMENT: in practice our core policies have been stable since 2016
12:38 < Simon/D> thesunnyk: With the way that COVID policies have been grossly mishandled (regardless of your position) IMO makes it an even weaker case for Governments to take full control of any other emergency, and exactly why we need take more well considered approaches before it gets to the point that we are living in a disaster zone.
12:39 < Sam/D> I disagree with the trimming back policy positions. It helps to legitimise our party with our perceived jokey name and since we're deregistered.
12:41 < zach__/D> Theoretically, we could pass plenty of policies that go completely against the core policies, if the majority of congress and voting members agree.
12:41 <+thesunnyk> Simon/D: I think looking at how poorly we're doing for climate change, something needs to change. I don't know the detail of vote planet's policy, but the overall idea is to suspend parts of the market, which UBI also does btw.
12:42 <+jedb> thesunny: how does UBI suspend parts of the market?
12:42 <+thesunnyk> It gives people a small amount of money, which makes them more expensive as human resources.
12:42 < zach__/D> Eg, GMOs which subtly fits in but we had a discussion yesterday about a disclaimer towards patenting life
12:42 <+thesunnyk> It's a faux minimum wage.
12:43 <+jedb> I don't see how you could characterise that as suspending part of the market
12:43 <+thesunnyk> Humans are a market.
12:44 < Morton/D> To clarify: I was not a member of the greens, but I voted for them in prior elections
12:44 < Simon/D> thesunnyk: UBI/NIT extends the market to go below zero. For Climate, there is still plenty which can be done, such as actually charge for the pollution they are causing which would make polluting to be unprofitable when you can't do it for free
12:44 < Simon/D> it still has the potential to sort itself out if the market was allowed to do it's part
12:45 < JayStephens/D> Nicely dodged the words "third way" there 
12:45 <+thesunnyk> I think that was workable in the 90s. We're no longer in that position.
12:45 < zach__/D> This pirate party isnt going the broad route when we pass policies that are distant from the core pirate ones
12:45 <+thesunnyk> OK I think we're no longer contributing to the strategy here.
12:46 < Satch/D> I think it's clear that we're not ecofascists, so we're looking for ways to promote free markets to tackle the issues as much as possible
12:46 < milspec/D> Miles, you hit the nail on the head. Our policies have huge potential for appealing to both left and right wing people.
12:47 < andrewdpirate/D> Legislation is always used to set the boundaries and structure of markets. That's considerably different that suspending markets entirely and just directly dictating industrial action.
12:47 <+thesunnyk> Satch/D: OK that was triggering, climate emergency / war footing is not ecofascism.
12:47 < Satch/D> We can find ways to incentivize without going full communist and destroying the free market.
12:47 < Simon/D> If we take extreme positions such as Climate Lockdowns, it would make us basically unelectable because it would be a very unpopular idea, and then we'd achieve nothing.
12:47 <+jedb> thesunnyk: government taking control over and merging with industry is a big component of some brands of fascism
12:48 <+thesunnyk> My view closely mirrors this entertaining one hour youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCuy1DaQzWI
12:48 <+thesunnyk> I think the subtlety matters here.
12:48 < Satch/D> No, I don't have a problem with declaring a climate emergency, but that alone is a largely symbolic gesture. It's how we actually tackle the issues that really matter.
12:48 <+jedb> Simon: the concept of a "lockdown" in general should be just flat out forbidden
12:48 <+thesunnyk> I just want to be clear that I don't agree with ecofascism and it's a misunderstanding of the position.
12:49 <+thesunnyk> Some people talk about the donut model as ecofascism and I think it's very unhelpful
12:49 < Gold/D> I remember Andrew speaking of a similar experience too and how the pirate party seemed opposite to that
12:51 <+thesunnyk> On Growth.1: I've seen people with a lot of reach start to say "Pirate" a lot more now than earlier, complete with spitballing policies which look a lot like ours (cultural policies relating to archival / DRM for example). I think there is space to create relationships here.
12:52 < zach__/D> Pirates could issue more position statements regarding current situations. Keep relevant and advertise our values at the same time
12:53 < alexjago/D> press release
12:53 <+jedb> left/right is very poor terminology for describing positions
12:53 < Satch/D> left-leaning centrist 
12:53 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> We need spokespeople between elections
12:54 < alexjago/D> We used to have a dedicated Press Officer
12:54 < alexjago/D> but it's a huge workload
12:54 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Greens did this here in QLD.
12:54 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> They essentially created a shadow cabinet of spokespeople.
12:54 < zach__/D> They dont have to be too formal
12:54 < Satch/D> They often stagnate, I've been at fault for that when there doesn't seem much momentum.
12:55 < Satch/D> Sometimes the climate changes rapidly, and the original motivation for a PR becomes less relevant.
12:56 < Gold/D> Any chance to borrow from the eu pirate parties for PRs regarding international matters?
12:56 < Satch/D> Yes, we could look at syndicating where the issues apply to Australia.
12:57 < alexjago/D> sometimes we do re-release international Pirate PRs
12:58 <+thesunnyk> One challenging thing I found earlier is:
12:58 <+thesunnyk> * knowing what's the most important thing I have to work on, and
12:58 <+thesunnyk> * What process I'm expected to follow.
12:58 < milspec/D> Whats the workflow for a press release? Someone writes it, then review by X number of people?
12:58 <+thesunnyk> Yeah a while.
13:00 < zach__/D> What about a volunteer board for tasks available and who to contact to help coordinate. Good for new members
13:00 < Morton/D> 2. Do you have friends/family who might be interested in supporting Pirate politics? 
13:00 < Morton/D> My wife still supports greens mainly due due to their policies in regards to the treatment and policies towards first nations people, treatment of refugees and humanitarian aid to foreign counties. She used to work in foreign aid and has seen poor policy/enactment of aid and treatment of these 3 parties.
13:01 < alexjago/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/Press_Release_Guide
13:01 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> We need an onboarding process.
13:02 < Satch/D> We have lots of passive support, but not many who are keen on actively engaging so much.
13:02 < alexjago/D> https://pirateparty.org.au/gettinginvolved/
13:03 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> This is great. Do new members get sent this?
13:03 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Do they speak to someone?
13:03 < alexjago/D> The links generally go to the wiki terms of reference and then say email the NC
13:04 < Satch/D> Any member can suggest a PR or party statement, or start drafting one and ping the NC.
13:06 <+jedb> an issue or policy that we never really talk about is immigration, but I don't really know how pirate politics could address that, common pirate party principles don't really have much to say on the subject
13:06 < Morton/D> All the meetups seem to be in Queensland, any pirates in Syd?
13:07 < alexjago/D> Miles and Roger and I are all in brisbane 
13:07 < Gold/D> That's because miles organises them
13:07 < milspec/D> We could consider Asana or Jira for managing tasks
13:07 < Gold/D> Look into non-proprietary options first?
13:08 < Gimmeadrink/D> The pirates are generally a more tech-orientated party, for sure.
13:08 < alexjago/D> Discord was successful but te forums are dead
13:08 < Satch/D> Jira will be too complicated for non-developers
13:09 < andrewdpirate/D> PPAU is just getting progressively more tropical
13:10 < andrewdpirate/D> Darwin next
13:10 < Gimmeadrink/D> Oh gods...
13:10 < Gold/D> Or FNQ and campaign for north queensland independence
13:10 < Simon/D> I am going touring in a Caravan so will be literally *everywhere*
13:10 <+jedb> this dates back from when we had physical congresses and everyone kept avoiding the colder capital cities for some reason
13:10 <+jedb> wusses, I say
13:10 < alexjago/D> SMOL pizza budget
13:11 < milspec/D> hahaha
13:11 < Gold/D> Dominoes $5
13:11 < milspec/D> pizza flavoured shapes
13:11 < Satch/D> kids menu, all you can eat for $4 
13:11 < Gimmeadrink/D> Preheated pizza pockets from coles?
13:11 < Simon/D> 1 pizza shape each
13:11 < Morton/D> Idea: encourage a donation to the party to participate, and party organises pizza/drinks for a slight profit
13:12 < Miles/D> membership is "pay what you want" so new signups and when people  renew  can very easily donate
13:12 < Miles/D> we always get a spike of donations when we go member signup or member renwal drives
13:12 < Gold/D> I was always bugging James about a vic meetup, but that never happened.
13:12 < milspec/D> https://tenor.com/view/kiko-dourado-gif-18401440
13:14 < Satch/D> Anyone in Adelaide is welcome to a skeptics group I'm attending. It's not Pirate or Fusion, but I like it.  https://www.meetup.com/Thinking-and-Drinking-Skeptics-in-the-Pub/events/286785783/
13:14  * jedb gets popcorn to eat while listening to this drama
13:15 < Miles/D> ::ppqld:
13:15 < Gold/D> Is that side meetup still happening today?
13:15 < alexjago/D> You know, we never officially endorsed the state logo variants, I just uploaded them to the Discord
13:16 < Satch/D> Uncontested, all good! 
13:16 < Miles/D> brisbane brewing co uhhh 6pm
13:16 < Gold/D> Which one though? There's two
13:16 < Morton/D> Anyone in Sydney is welcome to come along to a Security Conference I go to every month, or if you already do go let me know and we can catchup for a chat
13:16 < Morton/D> https://www.sectalks.org/sydney/
13:17  * alexjago/D notes that there are approximately zero women participating in the discussion
13:17 <+thesunnyk> Are we solarpunks?
13:17 < Simon/D> since we are spruking, this is a Melbourne group I am part of : https://www.meetup.com/designingopendemocracy/
13:18 < zach__/D> Highlight certain values: Privacy online, evidence based policies. These are more applicable to the general public
13:18 < Morton/D> Wife helped me formulate response above, haha some backseat participation
13:18 <+thesunnyk> Like would Pirates agree with this? www.re-des.org/a-solarpunk-manifesto/
13:18 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Personally Atompunk
13:19 < Gold/D> Are there much women at said tech conferences?
13:19 < Gimmeadrink/D> My wife was passing me notes earlier, does that count?
13:19 < Morton/D> Hmm, 10-20%
13:19 <+jedb> zach__: kinda funny since we still need to update our policies on online privacy
13:19 < Morton/D> approximation
13:19 <~alexjago> jedb: the concept of a privacy tort came up the other day
13:20 < Gold/D> In a way if we don't reach out to women, we're pretty much missing out on half the population
13:20 <+jedb> scifi x-punk often has great aesthetics
13:20 < Gimmeadrink/D> You'll need solar sails when you get up there, still technically solar punk right?
13:20 < alexjago/D> Most of Fusion has an "up-winger" identity
13:20 < andrewdpirate/D> Sunny Punk
13:20 < Satch/D> My issue with space is the lack of oxygen.
13:21 < alexjago/D> https://aeon.co/essays/left-and-right-are-over-the-future-is-up-and-down
13:21 < Morton/D> Re Miles Question: How do we market ourselves to those who arn't traditional pirates?
13:21 < Morton/D> My opinion: Have policy towards some of the social issues that the greens would generally capture people on- Humanitarian aid, treatment of refugees and aboriginals.
13:21 < Morton/D> Also potentially some words about gender equality (for both woman and men)
13:21 <+thesunnyk> The video I linked above talks about the fundamental gap between ecomodernism vs solarpunk, and it (and I) see solarpunk as the more optimistic, realistic view of the future.
13:22 < Satch/D> Agreed, it's the polarity of US politics that drives this, while what's more important is Authoritarian-Libertarian or Conservative-Progressive.
13:23 < Satch/D> Left-right has been confused with everything, when it's really just about economic policy and regulation of markets.
13:23 < alexjago/D> our refugee policy is transformative and we don't talk about it enough
13:24 < zach__/D> Elon will take us there
13:24 <+jedb> alexjago: immigration is a federal policy issue that we never really talk about
13:24 < Satch/D> Star Trek is a bit communist.. 
13:24 <+thesunnyk> For indigenous issues, I was quite surprised that the Uluru statement from the heart, which was fundamentally about sharing, was not really embraced by Pirates.
13:24 < Gimmeadrink/D> He'll leave you up there.  I'd like to be able to get back...
13:25 <~alexjago> Our platform has a reference to it
13:25 <+jedb> thesunnyk: because the uluru statement has all sorts of issues to it
13:25 < Morton/D> Would you mind clarifying your issues with the statement jedb?
13:25 < alexjago/D> We have this to say
13:25 < alexjago/D> > 
13:25 < alexjago/D> > It is clear from the Uluru Statement from the Heart that Indigenous Australians do not want constitutional recognition as proposed by the Expert Panel. It is also clear that many indigenous activists oppose the Uluru Statement from the Heart because it does not include the possibility of a sovereign Treaty. With this in mind, Pirate Party Australia supports Indigenous efforts t <clipped message>
13:25 < alexjago/D> o resolve the injustices of Australias colonial history. We recognise that sovereignty has never been ceded and support efforts to negotiate in good faith a Treaty, Treaties or other formal agreements between the Commonwealth of Australia and the First Nations as decided by representative indigenous bodies.
13:26 < Satch/D> We (non-indigenous Aussies) can't impose on the ongoing conflicts between various nations, it's a tricky area.
13:26 < Morton/D> Would you mind clarifying your issues with the statement jedb? Is it mostly about what alex posted below, or slightly different? (edited)
13:27 <+thesunnyk> All good. I understand that we don't have a strong first nations representation.
13:27 <+jedb> Morton: I'm trying to pull up a copy of the damn thing, hold on
13:27 <+thesunnyk> I think the platform statement makes sense.
13:27 < Simon/D> I agree. We should be trying to get more indigenous people into Pirates/Fusion though.
13:27 <+thesunnyk> But it was something which really struck me as a document that it was about ideas which we really espouse
13:27 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> Just a note it is 3.30pm AEST
13:28 <+jedb> ah, there we go
13:28 < Morton/D> How would we get a larger indigenous representation without first affirming our support for them though?
13:29 < Gold/D> Well we could go and ask some indigenous representatives first for their opinions
13:29 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> A combination of affirming support and then listening
13:29 <+jedb> Morton: problems with it include a completely wrong idea of sovereignty and how it can be lost, a lack of responsibility regarding cultural issues, and a racist proposal for putting an aboriginal voice in the constitution
13:29 < zach__/D> Are we trying to solve the internet??
13:30 <+jedb> haven't read it in detail for a while so I'm probably missing details from my quick glance just now
13:30 < Morton/D> 3. The internet and communication has become increasingly corporatised and full of "walled gardens". What would we replace that with, if there was government funding for digital discussion communities? 
13:30 < Morton/D> Question, if we are using TOR as an example of the opposite, how would we balance removing censorship, but also ensuring we can still crack down on illegal activities (drug sites, weapon site and childporn for example)
13:31 < zach__/D> All those 3 issues are based in the real world where cracking down can happen without censorship
13:31 < Simon/D> drugs is an easy fix, just make it legal
13:31 <+jedb> Satch: you may be interested in looking up the definition of indigenous; anyone who was born in Aust, grew up in Aust, and is characteristic of Aust is an indigenous Aussie
13:31  * jedb catches up to current topic
13:32 < Gimmeadrink/D> To point 3 in regard to online spaces - There are issues around our current laws that need addressing first.  While platforms are held to be publishers and can be held liable, and while the old media can demand money for content shared, there will be very few organisations that will want to take the risk.  We need to repeal these bloody stupid legislation first.
13:32 < mandrke/D> OK jedb, Members of the Australian First Nations
13:32 < Satch/D> Technically, yes of course. I'm using it the first nations sense obviously.
13:33 < Gimmeadrink/D> Wrong comment quoted there David.  
13:33 < Satch/D> Oops
13:33 < Satch/D> Right clicking as the feed scrolls down 
13:33 < alexjago/D> Cory Doctorow has a really good point about *adversarial interoperability* as a key regulatory tool
13:34 < Gold/D> Government funding for people making open source alternatives?
13:34 <+jedb> Morton: I'm also opposed to a treaty on the basis of there being no non-Australian nation to have a treaty with; aborigines are already Australians
13:35 < Simon/D> I am no expert, not being First Nations myself, by my understanding is that the issue with Statement of the Heart is that it's something which has come from a small group, not consensus of the majority of First Nations, so there is a question mark if most First Nations would agree with it, which is hard to tell without there being a body to represent them and put it to a member v <clipped message>
13:35 < Simon/D> ote of First Nations people.
13:35 < Simon/D> I think that most First Nations probably agree, but without it being proven then some will question it.
13:35 < zach__/D> Theyre not a monolith
13:36 < zach__/D> They too have varied viewpoints
13:36 < Gimmeadrink/D> I refuse to use apple, so could someone tell me if the apple store does what google does where they provide a breakdown of the data safety, what is collected and where it is sent?
13:37 < andrewdpirate/D> What we could do from a government regulatory perspective, is to lay out the open, interoperable, privacy adhering etc guidelines under which a service provider could experience more favorable business terms, such as liability conditions etc.
13:37 < Morton/D> Apple has privacy inbuilt for other apps (like facebook) but then just does the exact same thing at the OS level, and hogs the data for themselves to sell
13:37 < zach__/D> @Gimmeadrink They do it fairly well now, on each app, but probably not to the level we want
13:37 < Morton/D> Apple has opt-in privacy inbuilt for other apps (like facebook) but then just does the exact same thing at the OS level, and hogs the data for themselves to sell (edited)
13:37 <+jedb> COMMENT: everyone wants their phones to Just Werk(tm), nobody wants to be constantly spied on, but since the former is obvious while the latter is hidden, the principle of "out of sight, out of mind" dominates
13:38 < Morton/D> If have tried many times to get my family (siblings) to stop using tiktok, but its so addictive, and so many of their friends are on there that it ends up with them saying "I dont care what (x) knows about me"
13:38 < Morton/D> COMMENT: If have tried many times to get my family (siblings) to stop using tiktok, but its so addictive, and so many of their friends are on there that it ends up with them saying "I dont care what (x) knows about me" (edited)
13:39 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> This is a very good point.
13:39 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> I guess people don't see the risks associated with their data being harvested
13:40 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> or they view the risk as being significantly lower than the benefits
13:40 < Morton/D> COMMENT: I have tried many times to get my family (siblings) to stop using tiktok, but its so addictive, and so many of their friends are on there that it ends up with them saying "I dont care what (x) knows about me" (edited)
13:40 < Simon/D> as critical as I am of the VIC government, I think that they have the right idea for First Nations people, they have helped establish a democratic org to represent the will of (Victorian) First Nations and perhaps it could then go National... https://www.firstpeoplesrelations.vic.gov.au/treaty-process https://www.firstpeoplesvic.org/
13:40 < Gold/D> IMO there are people already working on Linux phones, but they don't have the funding to make it anything other than a niche community project.
13:40 <+jedb> you can more or less get a phone that works without spying on you (eg lineageOS and fdroid) but the inherent nature of the mobile phone system always knowing where you are is hard to get away from without government regulation on data collection
13:40 < alexjago/D> yep, so this is the point where government can step in
13:40 <+thesunnyk> If you look at EUs GDPR legislation, it does to a large extent prevent legitimate businesses from spying on users.
13:40 <+thesunnyk> The point is to regulate effectively.
13:41 <+thesunnyk> (as someone who works for a tech company, GDPR was massive)
13:42 <+thesunnyk> I think people do care, but they expect that the government is there to regulate and limit the power of these companies.
13:42 <+jedb> Morton: usually if you show them the more invasive forms of user targeted advertising only then do they start getting creeped out
13:42 < Morton/D> Any conversation about privacy needs to start with "Why should I care about privacy?"
13:42 < Satch/D> Android is an offshoot of Linux, still linux core
13:43 <+jedb> Morton: (un)fortunately, all the deplatforming that has happened over things dug up from a decade or more in the past provide great examples for why people should care
13:43 < Morton/D> Messenger/facebook literally listens to your mic and sends you targeted adds based on conversations near a device with a mic. But even that people are like "I just get ads for stuff I want"
13:43 < mandrke/D> ther idea was a pure GNU/Linux phone... e.g. postmarketOS
13:43 < Gold/D> The kernel is, but millions of lines of codes have been written for hardware support for SOCs to support only Android. Its at a point where they're not remotely the same anymore
13:43 < zach__/D> Because "doing something wrong" includes travelling more than 5kms from your home, for some places these past 2 years
13:45 <+jedb> COMMENT: much in the same way that anyone can get offended over anything, any govt or big corporation can decide they don't like you at any point for something completely innocent you did years ago, and that is why privacy is important
13:45 <+thesunnyk> It's difficult to communicate but I think the concept of data mining is one way to think about talking about it: Most of the data is not valuable, but sometimes you do a thing which others can use as leverage, and they will.
13:45 <+thesunnyk> That's why it's "mining for gold"
13:45 <+thesunnyk> (they already say leave your phone at home when you protest)
13:46 < Gold/D> There's many other projects too, ubuntu touch, mobian, manjaro, et c. By offering other options is how you break down these walled gardens.
13:46 < Gimmeadrink/D> Data scraping is an issue as well, ClearviewAI shows how dangerous that can be.  I don't think many Facebook/Instagram users realise that their images are scraped from websites, compiled and packaged to law enforcement for facial recognition
13:46 < alexjago/D> COMMENT: the key concept is that mass surveillance is *retrospective* surveillance, and things can change
13:47 < alexjago/D> Not just the metadata retention scope creep - things like Roe v Wade
13:48 < Satch/D> When a social media platform essentially becomes the public soap box, they have obligations to open discussion. It's not like walking into a small shop.
13:49 < Gold/D> This is something sort of related in Linux communities, but I'm unsure of the PPAU view on this. Should public workers be made to use free software over proprietary software?
13:49 <+jedb> technically there are alternatives and various people have tried setting up alternatives, but often the response is to try and destroy the alternatives
13:50 < Gimmeadrink/D> That
13:50 < Gimmeadrink/D> That's difficult, especially when it comes to specialist software and equipment controllers. (edited)
13:50 <+jedb> Gold: public workers should be made to use free and open data formats and protocols; the proprietary software question is less important
13:50 < Morton/D> So much of this discussion seems to end up in echo chambers regardless. For example reddit, each subreddit seems to always represent a certain group, and those that go against the ideas just get their views deleted
13:51 <+jedb> lol reddit
13:51 < Morton/D> As an example of letting the public handle the moderation not the company (reddit the company still handles moderation as well of course)
13:51 < Morton/D> I would call reddit a negative example towards that solution
13:51 <+thesunnyk> Interestingly using OSS also stops the slightly strange behaviour coming from some governments to stop using sort-of legitimate software from other nations (eg: Huawei, Tiktok)
13:52 <+jedb> Morton: for quite some years, slashdot seemed to have a more successful model of user moderation than reddit
13:53 < Simon/D> In Victoria they did the same and released all the de-identified Myki data (public transport tickets) and subsequently it was re-identified
13:53 <+jedb> Morton: which iirc boils down to not just user moderation, but user meta-moderation
13:54 < alexjago/D> everyone wants the layers below them to be open source
13:55 <+jedb> COMMENT: open data formats and protocols are more important than open software, at least while the formats remain simple enough that non-corporations can reimplement them
13:55 < Morton/D> Sorry to go back to privacy debate while talking about this, but I think its worth mentioning that targeted advertising/data harvesting leads more and more people towards echo chambers. Such as someone who mentions their lack of trust towards vaccines will likely be recommended communities and articles around antivax (as they are very likely to read and engage) meaning that they  <clipped message>
13:55 < Morton/D> end up only seeing things that support a warped world view, that correlates to that person that this is the correct view.
13:55 < Morton/D> COMMENT: Sorry to go back to privacy debate while talking about this, but I think its worth mentioning that targeted advertising/data harvesting leads more and more people towards echo chambers. Such as someone who mentions their lack of trust towards vaccines will likely be recommended communities and articles around antivax (as they are very likely to read and engage) meaning t <clipped message>
13:55 < Morton/D> hat they end up only seeing things that support a warped world view, that correlates to that person that this is the correct view. (edited)
13:55 <~alexjago> jedb: yep
13:56 < alexjago/D> yep, radicalisation as engagement
13:58 < Simon/D> save me big daddy government
13:58 <+jedb> COMMENT: something that most people don't talk about, is that someone constantly following your online activity around, recording everything you do, all in order to more effectively shove stuff in your face you don't want to see, sounds an awful lot like cyberstalking and harrassment, and that is basically what data collection and user-targeted advertising is
13:58 < Morton/D> Opinion: There should be a central database of sources that are considered "credible" and news/articles can have a specific legal branding if they use two or more sources from what is considered "Credible"
13:59 < zach__/D> Doesnt mean that world view is wrong 
14:00 < Morton/D> Sorry that was my opinion leaking into the statement
14:00 < zach__/D> We dont need an algorithm to lead towards our own views, we do that naturally
14:01 < Satch/D> Reminds me of the recent concerns of the use of period-tracking apps, as some of them started selling the data to market feminine hygiene products and chocolate to women during menstrual periods.
14:01 < Morton/D> I believe that many of these "Radicals" are actually people that could have their view go either way, but end up believing in a specific thing due to what ends up in their recommended social media feeds
14:02 < zach__/D> @First Class Villain Some radicals just want a change without care or knowledge of what that change should be
14:02 < Morton/D> Yes, there will always be those groups
14:02 < Morton/D> But I believe there is an increasing number; if not in part due to this issue
14:02 < Satch/D> Yes, the 'web 2.0' problem, as algorithms categorise people into echo chambers.
14:02 < Miles/D> MOTION: close PPAU National Congress 2022
14:02 < Miles/D> start voting
14:02 < Miles/D> i vote aye
14:03 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> aye
14:03 < mandrke/D> aye
14:03 < Gold/D> Aye
14:03 < Satch/D> Aye
14:03 < Gimmeadrink/D> Aye
14:03 < Ghost-Pirate-LeRoger/D> aye
14:03 < andrewdpirate/D> aye
14:03 <+jedb> aye
14:03 <+Deadbeat> Aye
14:03 < zach__/D> aye
14:03 < Morton/D> aye
14:03 < alexjago/D> Aye
14:03 < Sam/D> aye
14:03 <+jedb> Satch: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/ a decade old, so not exactly recent
14:03 < Morton/D> https://www.realestate.com.au/qld/brisbane-city-4000/
14:03 < Gold/D> I was looking at their website, it says they do food
14:03 < milspec/D> Aye
14:04 < Morton/D> Question: What is the general pirate drink of choice?
14:05 < alexjago/D> raspberry
14:05 < Gimmeadrink/D> https://tenor.com/view/jack-sparrow-rhum-is-good-pirates-of-the-caribbean-johnny-depp-gif-13219281
14:05 < Satch/D> Rum and Pirate Life craft beers. 
14:05 < Tyrone-D-Lisle/D> kombucha ftw
14:05 < alexjago/D> there aren't enough places in Brisbane that serve pilsners
14:05 <+jedb> alcoholic ginger beer
14:05 < Morton/D> Love a good alcoholic ginger beer
14:05 < alexjago/D> alcoholic ginger beer is a good choice
14:05 < Miles/D> close voting, motion passes
14:05 < alexjago/D> byeeee
14:05 < milspec/D> Well done to the leadership team. Love you guys
14:06 < Gimmeadrink/D> Cheers all, have fun
14:06 < Morton/D> Feeling sick today so best not go out
14:06 < Morton/D> Feeling sick today so best not go out (syd) (edited)
14:06 < Simon/D> ty all
14:07 <+thesunnyk> Thanks everyone.
14:07 < Miles/D> some great discussions there this afternoon on strategy and ideas
14:07 < Miles/D> thank you everyone for participting

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